Sansa and Tyrion predictions

[IronSuitor]

Joffrey did order him to beat Sansa once, he froze and the whole scene got interrupted. And no, the Kingsguard are the Kingsguard, the Hound was Joffrey's sworn shield before that and retained his status as "Joffrey's dog" after that too, from what we can see in the books.

Perhaps Joffrey was intimidated by him, but that had nothing to do with his status at all. His de facto authority was none in this case.

Why are you so hell bent on marrying Sansa off to the first eligible bachelor anyway? Just wondering.

The Kingsguard fulfill the exact same function as a sworn shield. Sworn to obey the king and protect him with their own lives, except the Kingsguard has even more institutional pressure. It would have been interesting to see how that scene played out. At any rate, like I said, there's no real difference between beating someone yourself and sitting back and watching someone else do it, especially when that person is Meryn Trant and he's probably going to be rougher than you would. Arys Oakheart, with his weak, unwilling beatings, probably spared Sansa more pain than the Hound ever did.

Not the first eligible bachelor, the first one who will give her life a semblance of normalcy and preferably a significant amount of power. Hell, she can run away and live life as a peasant or a septa if it makes her happy, for all I care. It would be a waste of the lessons Petyr is teaching her on wielding power from a place of weakness, though.

Why are you so bent on seeing her fulfill her torture spawned emotional attachment to a significantly older borderline psychopath?

[Gingerly Grumkin]

Joffrey then continues with ordering Meryn Trant and Boros Blount to beat her. The Hound says "enough" but before anything else can happen, Tyrion enters and stops the entire thing (so we don't actually know what would have happened to Sandor had he further challenged Joffrey).

What! I don't think we are reading the same book, im not at home so i dont have it on me, but im pretty sure it went something like this.

It will be over soon. Sansa lost track of the blows.

"What is the meaning of this" The imp said

No Hound there, but he didn't beat her, something that the other KG do, so I do think the Hound has a little more power then others, he whores drinks and gambles, but all of them do that...

It was really a fucked up time because Selmy got fired and the Kingslayer is in jail, so the KG ran wild

[Lyanna Stark]

The Kingsguard fulfill the exact same function as a sworn shield. Sworn to obey the king and protect him with their own lives, except the Kingsguard has even more institutional pressure. It would have been interesting to see how that scene played out. At any rate, like I said, there's no real difference between beating someone yourself and sitting back and watching someone else do it, especially when that person is Meryn Trant and he's probably going to be rougher than you would. Arys Oakheart, with his weak, unwilling beatings, probably spared Sansa more pain than the Hound ever did.

That's just bizarre reasoning. Truly, exceptionally bizarre. The one time the Hound is ordered to beat Sansa he doesn't do it. He objects against it despite his job description being to protect only Joffrey, not her. And as I may remember, he regrets it very much later that he didn't do more, despite not having the authority to do so. It's baffling how people try so hard to argue that he should have done something more, or not killed Mycah while completely disregarding why he was there in the first place. What was his job description? Who was he sworn to protect? It wasn't the Starks.

Besides, may I remind you that you were completely wrong in Joffrey not ordering the Hound to beat Sansa. From the way you describe their interactions, you may want to try a reread since it can be a good thing to see it again to catch extra meaning.

Not the first eligible bachelor, the first one who will give her life a semblance of normalcy and preferably a significant amount of power. Hell, she can run away and live life as a peasant or a septa if it makes her happy, for all I care. It would be a waste of the lessons Petyr is teaching her on wielding power from a place of weakness, though.

Why are you so bent on seeing her fulfill her torture spawned emotional attachment to a significantly older borderline psychopath?

No husband she gets married off to is going to give her power. Her claim will only be used to further he husband's agenda. Women married off like that have no power what so ever. Women like Cersei and Dany are the exception, and Cersei is also widowed, which puts her in a much stronger position.

I'm not hell bent on seeing her fulfil anything, apart from that she should decide her own destiny and that she gets to go to Winterfell again. What I cannot do however is deny what's in the books since that would be stupid of me. The link between Sansa and Sandor has been set up since AGOT and keeps getting stronger over the course of the series, which I happen to think isn't coincidence. As I stated above, this doesn't mean I think it will end up a Disney fairytale (which is impossible anyway) but that it needs a resolution.

[Lyanna Stark]

What! I don't think we are reading the same book, im not at home so i dont have it on me, but im pretty sure it went something like this.

It will be over soon. Sansa lost track of the blows.

"What is the meaning of this" The imp said

No Hound there, but he didn't beat her, something that the other KG do, so I do think the Hound has a little more power then others, he whores drinks and gambles, but all of them do that...

It was really a fucked up time because Selmy got fired and the Kingslayer is in jail, so the KG ran wild

I know which book I am reading, don't know which one you are reading.

Sansa's chapter in ACOK, page 356 in my my recent paperback edition.

Joffrey says: "I'd shoot you too, but if I do mother says they'd kill my uncle Jaime. Instead you'll just be punished and we'll send word to your brother about what will happen to you if he doesn't yield. Dog, hit her"

This is where Dontos intevenes and later on when Meryn and Boros hit Sansa, the Hounds says "enough".

Then Tyrion arrives and asks "What is the meaning of this".

[IronSuitor]

That's just bizarre reasoning. Truly, exceptionally bizarre. The one time the Hound is ordered to beat Sansa he doesn't do it. He objects against it despite his job description being to protect only Joffrey, not her. And as I may remember, he regrets it very much later that he didn't do more, despite not having the authority to do so. It's baffling how people try so hard to argue that he should have done something more, or not killed Mycah while completely disregarding why he was there in the first place. What was his job description? Who was he sworn to protect? It wasn't the Starks.

All the other Kingsguard were in the exact same position, except Ser Arys didn't have Tyrion conveniently walk in after he refused and eventually had to obey or die and see her get beaten by Trant anyway. I'm not saying he should have or could have done more, only that he did the bare minimum anyone with a tiny bit of normal human compassion would do.

No husband she gets married off to is going to give her power. Her claim will only be used to further he husband's agenda. Women married off like that have no power what so ever. Women like Cersei and Dany are the exception, and Cersei is also widowed, which puts her in a much stronger position.

B.S. Dany had significant power in her marriage with Drogo, and he didn't even want her claim. You really think Olenna Redwyne or Margaery Tyrell sat around when they were married doing nothing? A Lord's lady, especially when she is a symbol unto herself, is in a potentially very powerful position, especially if she's learning how to play the game from one of the masters.

The link between Sansa and Sandor has been set up since AGOT and keeps getting stronger over the course of the series, which I happen to think isn't coincidence. As I stated above, this doesn't mean I think it will end up a Disney fairytale (which is impossible anyway) but that it needs a resolution.

Sansa's connection to the Hound is built on pain and the lack of anyone else who's ever showed a modicum of interest in her as a person. Normalcy, support, and a little self determination will fill the hole she currently attempts to fill by thinking about Sandor. I'd much rather see her story dealt with as a person, rather than a plot arc waiting to be resolved (How the Hound showing up would resolve anything is beyond me).

[brashcandy]

All the other Kingsguard were in the exact same position, except Ser Arys didn't have Tyrion conveniently walk in after he refused and eventually had to obey or die and see her get beaten by Trant anyway. I'm not saying he should have or could have done more, only that he did the bare minimum anyone with a tiny bit of normal human compassion would do.

Yes, this must be why absolutely no one in that room bothered to say or do anything besides Dontos and the Hound. It isn't about having a tiny bit of human compassion, it's about having power, which Tyrion had in excess as the King's Hand (and Dontos and Sandor lacked). I'm sure lots of people felt sorry for Sansa, but they couldn't do anything about it without risking their own necks. Later on in ASOS when Tyrion is stripped of his power and at Joff's mercy, we see how much more cautious he is around the boy and aware that his days could be numbered. And he's a Lannister mind you. For Sandor to even breathe the word "enough" could have been tantamount to treason, especially with someone as volatile as Joffrey.

B.S. Dany had significant power in her marriage with Drogo, and he didn't even want her claim. You really think Olenna Redwyne or Margaery Tyrell sat around when they were married doing nothing? A Lord's lady, especially when she is a symbol unto herself, is in a potentially very powerful position, especially if she's learning how to play the game from one of the masters.

Surely you jest? Drogo married Dany because she was a Targaryen princess, and one of the conditions of the marriage was that he would help her brother regain his throne, thereby enriching himself in the process. Dany didn't have substantive power until her dragons were born and she needed Drogo's death to realise this. Getting her own horse to ride, and being able to save a few women from being raped does not equate to power.

Sansa's connection to the Hound is built on pain and the lack of anyone else who's ever showed a modicum of interest in her as a person. Normalcy, support, and a little self determination will fill the hole she currently attempts to fill by thinking about Sandor. I'd much rather see her story dealt with as a person, rather than a plot arc waiting to be resolved (How the Hound showing up would resolve anything is beyond me).

The Hound and Sansa have a very personal connection. Yes, it's true that there was a lot of pain involved, but by and large they both tried not to create misery for each other, and Sansa comforts him on 2 separate and distinct occasions. She remembers him with something akin to fondness as well, and thinks that he's the only one who spoke the truth. It's not about waiting for the Hound to show up to resolve something in Sansa's plot arc, it's simply recognizing that the two of them feel something powerful for one another, have unfinished business, and that their story arcs look set to cross sooner rather than later. We know he's going to affect her life in some capacity, we just don't know how.

[Kittykatknits]

All the other Kingsguard were in the exact same position, except Ser Arys didn't have Tyrion conveniently walk in after he refused and eventually had to obey or die and see her get beaten by Trant anyway. I'm not saying he should have or could have done more, only that he did the bare minimum anyone with a tiny bit of normal human compassion would do.

B.S. Dany had significant power in her marriage with Drogo, and he didn't even want her claim. You really think Olenna Redwyne or Margaery Tyrell sat around when they were married doing nothing? A Lord's lady, especially when she is a symbol unto herself, is in a potentially very powerful position, especially if she's learning how to play the game from one of the masters.

Sansa's connection to the Hound is built on pain and the lack of anyone else who's ever showed a modicum of interest in her as a person. Normalcy, support, and a little self determination will fill the hole she currently attempts to fill by thinking about Sandor. I'd much rather see her story dealt with as a person, rather than a plot arc waiting to be resolved (How the Hound showing up would resolve anything is beyond me).

I think we are reading different books. Sandor lied multiple times for her, went back to save her from the mob despite being Joff's shield at that point, gave her advice on multiple occassions, offered to take her away, and spoke to her as an equal.

As for her connection being built on pain, I don't see how you came to that conclusion. Their conversation on the rooftop would imply quite the opposite. She calls him out on his statments, telling him he is awful and going to hell.

As for Dany, her power within the khalasar came from Drogo. Look what happened after his death.

I know which book I am reading, don't know which one you are reading.

Sansa's chapter in ACOK, page 356 in my my recent paperback edition.

Joffrey says: "I'd shoot you too, but if I do mother says they'd kill my uncle Jaime. Instead you'll just be punished and we'll send word to your brother about what will happen to you if he doesn't yield. Dog, hit her"

This is where Dontos intevenes and later on when Meryn and Boros hit Sansa, the Hounds says "enough".

Then Tyrion arrives and asks "What is the meaning of this".

This is pretty close. Dontos does intervene then Meryn and Boros start to hit her at Joff's orders. THe Hound then says enough. Joff says that it is not and then orders Meryn and Trount to "make her naked". This is when her dress is torn. Tyrion comes in shortly after to stop it.

So, The Hound both refused to follow the order and said something to try and stop it. Joff immediately overrode that. Nothing else The Hound could have done at that point.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

I posted it above in my other post.

For reference, it is in Sansa III, ACOK. Joffrey orders the Hound to beat her, he stands frozen and Dontos intervenes and pelters her with fruit, hoping that will deflect Joffrey's anger.

Joffrey then continues with ordering Meryn Trant and Boros Blount to beat her. The Hound says "enough" but before anything else can happen, Tyrion enters and stops the entire thing (so we don't actually know what would have happened to Sandor had he further challenged Joffrey).

nice catch.

[Gingerly Grumkin]

@Lyanna, I'll take your word for it...

Did the hound swear to protect Joff? Swearing sounds like something a Knight would do, only sweraing that the Hound does is "Bugger".

I understand how LF convinced the Queen of Thornes. But why would she keep him in the plans? Did he gain something for it, if so what? Doesn't the Queen of Thornes know LF is a piece of shit?

"Behind every great man is a greater woman" Queens play in AGOT, Ladies play in AGOT. Cat Tully, Sansa's mom and clone played AGOT

[ElizaMartell]

I don't like SanSan, TySan or PetSan so as far as I'm concerned they're all as bad as each other.

[brashcandy]

I don't like SanSan, TySan or PetSan so as far as I'm concerned they're all as bad as each other.

Well, I guess we should be glad Sansa is a lot more discerning.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

@Lyanna, I'll take your word for it...

Did the hound swear to protect Joff? Swearing sounds like something a Knight would do, only sweraing that the Hound does is "Bugger".

I understand how LF convinced the Queen of Thornes. But why would she keep him in the plans? Did he gain something for it, if so what? Doesn't the Queen of Thornes know LF is a piece of shit?

no he call himself Joffrey's sworn shield, even before he joined the Kingsguard.

“A knight’s a sword with a horse. The rest, the vows and the sacred oils and the lady’s favors, they’re silk ribbons tied round the sword. Maybe the sword’s prettier with ribbons hanging off it, but it will kill you just as dead. Well, bugger your ribbons, and shove your swords up your arses. I’m the same as you. The only difference is, I don’t lie about what I am. So, kill me, but don’t call me a murderer while you stand there telling each other that your shit don’t stink. You hear me?”

Arya squirted past Greenbeard so fast he never saw her. “You are a murderer!” she screamed. “You killed Mycah, don’t say you never did. You murdered him!”

The Hound stared at her with no flicker of recognition. “And who was this Mycah, boy?”

“I’m not a boy! But Mycah was. He was a butcher’s boy and you killed him. Jory said you cut him near in half, and he never even had a sword.” She could feel them looking at her now, the women and the children and the men who called themselves the knights of the hollow hill. “Who’s this now?” someone asked.

The Hound answered. “Seven hells. The little sister. The brat who tossed Joff ‘s pretty sword in the river.” He gave a bark of laughter. “Don’t you know you’re dead?”

“No, you’re dead,” she threw back at him.

Harwin took her arm to draw her back as Lord Beric said, “The girl has named you a murderer. Do you deny killing this butcher’s boy, Mycah?”

The big man shrugged

. “I was Joffrey’s sworn shield. The butcher’s boy attacked a prince of the blood.”

[IronSuitor]

Yes, this must be why absolutely no one in that room bothered to say or do anything besides Dontos and the Hound. It isn't about having a tiny bit of human compassion, it's about having power, which Tyrion had in excess as the King's Hand (and Dontos and Sandor lacked). I'm sure lots of people felt sorry for Sansa, but they couldn't do anything about it without risking their own necks. Later on in ASOS when Tyrion is stripped of his power and at Joff's mercy, we see how much more cautious he is around the boy and aware that his days could be numbered. And he's a Lannister mind you. For Sandor to even breathe the word "enough" could have been tantamount to treason, especially with someone as volatile as Joffrey.

Sandor lost control and spoke out, and it wouldn't have done Sansa a bit of good. And yes, Sandor and Dontos were probably the best men in the room, but they didn't do anything effectual to stop her beatings because as long as Joffrey was there no one could.

As for her connection being built on pain, I don't see how you came to that conclusion. Their conversation on the rooftop would imply quite the opposite. She calls him out on his statments, telling him he is awful and going to hell.

I don't see how that mitigates him being her only human contact during a period of torture.

As for Dany, her power within the khalasar came from Drogo. Look what happened after his death.

I hate to tell everybody this, but the only way anyone wields power is through their relationship with others. The vast majority of people, and pretty much every woman, are powerless in a feudalistic society, and all power stems from the few men who can raise and lead significant armies. (Hatching dragons could help a woman along the way, though.) Unless you're the type of Lord who can stamp his feet and produce an army your position of power is totally dependent upon being close to one who can. A Lady who is close and influential to her lord can be a dangerous player, which is where I see Sansa's arc going, from pawn to player.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

@Lyanna, I'll take your word for it...

Did the hound swear to protect Joff? Swearing sounds like something a Knight would do, only sweraing that the Hound does is "Bugger".

I understand how LF convinced the Queen of Thornes. But why would she keep him in the plans? Did he gain something for it, if so what? Doesn't the Queen of Thornes know LF is a piece of shit?

"Behind every great man is a greater woman" Queens play in AGOT, Ladies play in AGOT. Cat Tully, Sansa's mom and clone played AGOT

bite your tongue ser. Littlefinger and the Queen of Thorns are allies pledged to the destruction of House Lannister. Littlefinger is just a trustworthy as any other lord in westeros, which is as long as its in his interest.

[ElizaMartell]

Well, I guess we should be glad Sansa is a lot more discerning.

Just because on occassion one might treat Sansa nicely doesn't take away the problematic nature of the dynamics these grown men have with a 12/13 year old child.

[Lyanna Stark]

@Lyanna, I'll take your word for it...

Did the hound swear to protect Joff? Swearing sounds like something a Knight would do, only sweraing that the Hound does is "Bugger".

I understand how LF convinced the Queen of Thornes. But why would she keep him in the plans? Did he gain something for it, if so what? Doesn't the Queen of Thornes know LF is a piece of shit?

"Behind every great man is a greater woman" Queens play in AGOT, Ladies play in AGOT. Cat Tully, Sansa's mom and clone played AGOT

Of course the Hound had to do some sort of swearing to protect Joff, due to his position as his Sworn Shield. The name gives it away, no?

So far, the women we have seen playing the Game are few, but getting more numerous. Cat did to a point, Arianne did a bit, but only Cersei and QoT really try their hand at it.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

@Lyanna, I'll take your word for it... Did the hound swear to protect Joff? Swearing sounds like something a Knight would do, only sweraing that the Hound does is "Bugger". I understand how LF convinced the Queen of Thornes. But why would she keep him in the plans? Did he gain something for it, if so what?

Of course the Hound had to do some sort of swearing to protect Joff, due to his position as his Sworn Shield. The name gives it away, no?

So far, the women we have seen playing the Game are few, but getting more numerous. Cat did to a point, Arianne did a bit, but only Cersei and QoT really try their hand at it.

The queen of thorns has clearly been a player for years. She is probably the reason Mace Tyrell's only "action" during Robert's Rebellion was to besiege Storms End. She and Walder Frey must have been in the same strategy class at Maestor Military Academy.

[brashcandy]

Just because on occassion one might treat Sansa nicely doesn't take away the problematic nature of the dynamics these grown men have with a 12/13 year old child.

If you're going to look at it that way then you're missing the point. Yes, Sansa is young, but she's also growing up and we have to examine her relationships with men on how she reacts to them just as much as how they react to her. Martin made all of the Stark children too young, but that hasn't stopped him from involving them in some incredible, frequently unbelievable storylines, as well as showing that they're capable of forming deep and meaningful relationships with others. I'm not saying that you have to like Sansa in a relationship with anyone, but thinking that Sandor, Littlefinger and Tyrion are all the same just erases the important nuances and differences in her interactions with these people.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Just because on occassion one might treat Sansa nicely doesn't take away the problematic nature of the dynamics these grown men have with a 12/13 year old child.

she's not a child by their standards. that's clearly not a fair assessment.

[ElizaMartell]

Walder Frey obviously failed that class.