Sansa and Tyrion predictions

[Queen Cersei I]

Actually I think you could add Jaime and Sansa to the list as being worse than Tyrion. Tyrion was only counting and hoping for her brother to die and went along with his father's plans wholeheartedly, while Jaime actually tried to kill Bran....and maim her father and kill Jory Casell....and would have killed / cut off Arya's hand if she had found her.

Although Jaime hasn't planned on raping her yet and only stopped himself after she has has stripped and she is shaking with fear...unlike Tyrion...so maybe he is not that much worse.

Edit: Other than that your list was pretty spot on.

Yeah, my list was incomplete. In addition to the creep fest that would be LF and Sansa, I don't want to see her with Ramsay Bolton, Roose Bolton, Gregor Clegane, Rorge, the Biter, et. al for obvious reasons. I'd also be creeped out to see her with Jon Snow or (I think it goes without saying) any of her biological siblings, living or dead. (This may sound strange, but I have actually heard completely earnest fans of a Sansa/ Jon Snow pairing. I even read an imagined (and hoped for) interaction between the two in which one reader imagined Jon S. saving Sansa from LF's infernal clutches and then ripping of her "flimsy nightdress" and making sweet, sweet love to her onscreen. :stillsick: No, I am not kidding-- I honestly could not make this stuff up.)

Personally, I'd rather see Jon hook up with Lady Stoneheart than Sansa. If Jon really needs to fuck the unattainable mother that Catelyn represents (again, I've heard this actually argued), he may as well go to the original recipe rather than a substitute. Plus, his interactions with Mel indicate that he may well have a thing for older women, so... here's to you, Mrs. Robinson? :uhoh:

[Queen Cersei I]

I predict Tyrion will shag her rotten.

I, too, believe that if I was ever subjected to a shagging courtesy of the misogynistic wonder, a.k.a., "Tyrion three thrust", I, too, would start rotting from the inside out.

Bite your tongue. Capturing the attention of Petyr Baelish, Lord Protector of the Vale of Baelish, Lord Paramount of the Riverlands, is the greatest accomplishment Sansa Stark, has or can ever hope to achieve, dimwitted as she is.

:rolleyes:

The only reason I'd root for a LF/ Sansa sex scene would be if we got to see LF remove his breeches... only to be greeted with the hysterical laughter of his young Lolita, who can barely withhold her (rude but wholly) natural shock and amusement at his tiny, tiny size.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

I, too, believe that if I was ever subjected to a shagging courtesy of the misogynistic wonder, a.k.a., "Tyrion three thrust", I, too, would start rotting from the inside out.

I'm not sure Tyrion is a misogynist. And I'm sure the next time your nose is cut off, you're bed ridden and suffering from an infection from an arrow wound you will be at the height of your sexual prowess.

:rolleyes:

The only reason I'd root for a LF/ Sansa sex scene would be if we got to see LF remove his breeches... only to be greeted with the hysterical laughter of his young Lolita, who can barely withhold her (rude but wholly) natural shock and amusement at his tiny, tiny size.

I too have no desire for a Sansa and Petyr sex seen. I wish he would have pushed her out the moon door after Lysa. As for Petyr's p-unit, I'm sure its enormous or microscopic which ever you prefer to imagine it as, while you're imagining it. And in the future you will refer to its Grace, The Titan of Bravos with more respect.

You know you have a real obsession with penises for someone who has no use for them.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

At least Tyrion's future mate, whomever she will be, can be thankful that Mandon Moore cut off his nose, not his tongue. Of course, if that mate is less than fond of him, she may be relieved that her night-time ordeals are short in more ways than one. :P

I've come to the conclusion that Ty/San shippers are offended that Sansa rejected their hero (as mangled and deeply flawed as he is) and so they want Sansa to spend the rest of her life doing penance for her insult by remaining his wife. After all, her hopes of having a happy marriage with an attractive and compatible husband are shallow and immature, and she can only grow by putting those hopes aside. On the other hand, Tyrion's hopes of having an attractive and sexually available wife are normal, healthy, and must be fulfilled regardless of the feelings of his wife. Ai yi yi.

I want her head on spike, personally. But Tyrion seemed fond of her and was nothing but kind. If she's not going use Ned Stark's buy 1 get 3 free coupon from the the National Razor Co, then I'd prefer she be as far away from the Petyr as possible. Perhaps, she and Tyrion can settle in Iben. The fidget climes would reminder her of home and the ice box where her heart used to be.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

At least Tyrion's future mate, whomever she will be, can be thankful that Mandon Moore cut off his nose, not his tongue. Of course, if that mate is less than fond of him, she may be relieved that her night-time ordeals are short in more ways than one. :P

oh, I dunnno, that depends on what he was doing with his nose whilst using his tongue.

Thanks LLf'sLash. I thought there were only two instances of Tyrion's "short" comings in the text, but "exploded almost at once" confirms for a third time that at least he's very quick.

One would think that a lifetime of whoring would build some endurance in the bedchamber

:lol: :lol: you're so right Rapsie.

oh tut tut. You're confusing Tyrion with Aerys Oakhard (sp?). She's had her orgasm for the night, or at least she has a far as Tyrion can tell. Beside, "I

."

[redriver]

I think they'd make a lovely couple...

...if she would learn to bend the knee.

[Maroucia]

Yeah, my list was incomplete. In addition to the creep fest that would be LF and Sansa, I don't want to see her with Ramsay Bolton, Roose Bolton, Gregor Clegane, Rorge, the Biter, et. al for obvious reasons. I'd also be creeped out to see her with Jon Snow or (I think it goes without saying) any of her biological siblings, living or dead. (This may sound strange, but I have actually heard completely earnest fans of a Sansa/ Jon Snow pairing. I even read an imagined (and hoped for) interaction between the two in which one reader imagined Jon S. saving Sansa from LF's infernal clutches and then ripping of her "flimsy nightdress" and making sweet, sweet love to her onscreen. :stillsick: No, I am not kidding-- I honestly could not make this stuff up.)

Oh yeah!

What’s even creepier then banging your brother?

Banging your Un-brother!!! :ack: :ack: :ack:

Please GRRM, no Un-sex!!! I don’t want to see that… My view on zombie-sex is the same then the one I have with my parents: they DON’T have sex!!!(LALALALA) :ack:

[Miryana]

I will be deeply, deeply disappointed if GRRM eventually endorses the idea that an abused child kept from her family and forced into marriage has a duty to stay married to her captor because he's her husband and he "only" molested her instead of raping her. I know ASOIAF is meant to be grim and all, but if it ends with a win for the "Tyrion should have raped Sansa on the wedding night and it wouldn't even have been rape" people, it'll be the kind of thing that will seriously taint my enjoyment of the books. It would be punishing Sansa in order to reward Tyrion (confirming the anti-Sansa opinion that being a dreamy 11-year-old is a greater crime than being a grown man with a very selective sense of justice and sympathy when it comes to the people his actions injure).

I've come to the conclusion that Ty/San shippers are offended that Sansa rejected their hero (as mangled and deeply flawed as he is) and so they want Sansa to spend the rest of her life doing penance for her insult by remaining his wife. After all, her hopes of having a happy marriage with an attractive and compatible husband are shallow and immature, and she can only grow by putting those hopes aside. On the other hand, Tyrion's hopes of having an attractive and sexually available wife are normal, healthy, and must be fulfilled regardless of the feelings of his wife. Ai yi yi.

Yeah, as if the only problem here is that Sansa didn't kneel or that she's "shallow" (an argument that's demolished by her compassion for the Hound). Tyrion, on the other hand, is entitled to want a gorgeous adoring child bride and to rape women because his issues cause him such paaaain that he deserves relief, and he never ever has to examine his behaviour and realise that while some people have treated him badly he's also treated people badly himself.

[Lyanna Stark]

I'm not sure Tyrion is a misogynist.

Tyrion has issues in his relationship with women.

I posted something rather longish about it earlier in this thread, starting here in response to James Arryn.

You could certainly see these issues as being caused by his almost complete lack of healthy interactions with women in his life, but the fact remains: until Tyrion met Penny, he's never really had much positive and honest interaction with women. Sansa was his forced child bride, Shae a paid for whore, Tysha, while honest and good to start with, ended up tarnished and depressing. He never met his mother and his sister hates him.

Whether or not you want to classify those as misogynist, they are least come dangerously close. However, if we see Tyrion with a female friend (Penny) and a female boss (Dany) this could change to the better.

It's not like if you have some misogynist views you are doomed to forever live your life as one.

[Lyanna Stark]

No highborn lady has a free choice in husbands. Plus I think at this point Sansa will be happy with any man who isn't cruel, grotesquely wounded and deformed or a full generation older than her and in love with her mother. If there's anything Sansa's learned, it's that ideal is not going to happen.

But this is exactly what Sansa laments, that she will not herself have any input in her choice of husbands. IT's also completely rational why should would have this aversion, since so far, her arranged marriages have been terrible. Ned wanted to find her someone brave, gentle and strong, and I think that had been something and older Sansa would have had an easier time accepting, plus most likely Ned would have given her a couple of different choices. I also very much doubt he would have forced her had she not wanted to. So I'd say yes, Sansa's chances of having any agency with regards to her own marriage vanished when Ned disappeared out of the picture. Unless she can create that agency herself, which is almost the point of her character arc.

Getting married off to random bloke 3 (Harry the Heir) hardly seems it, don't you agree?

If it weren't for condoms most modern teenage boys would have a couple of bastards before they got married, it's not necessarily an indication of a terrible character flaw. Sure, Harry might turn out to be a terrible dude and Sansa will be doomed to continue her horrible existence, I'm just saying I hope it doesn't happen that way. Hell, she doesn't even have to love the guy, as long as he protects her and is nice to her in a non pervy littlefinger way he'll be better than Tyrion, the Hound, and Joffrey combined.

Fathering a number of bastards have previously been used to demonstrate character flaws, and Westeros is not modern times. See Robert Baratheon, his many bastards, his whoring etc.

The point why Sansa isn't meant to stay with Harry the Heir is that all the major characters have all been introduced (GRRM has said so himself), Sansa being bartered off as a piece of meat to the highest bidder has been a running theme in her character development, and it's one she has come to dislike strongly herself. What you are suggesting is that she should accept being bartered off to some dude like a proper obedient, subservient little girl without any wish for her own destiny. What would be the point of even putting Sansa in the books if all she's going to manage is getting married off to some lordling in the Vale, settle down and have children? It would have been more interesting to read about Fat Walda or Gatehouse Ami in comparison.

It would be a 100% unsatisfactory ending.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Tyrion has issues in his relationship with women.

I posted something rather longish about it earlier in this thread, starting here in response to James Arryn.

You could certainly see these issues as being caused by his almost complete lack of healthy interactions with women in his life, but the fact remains: until Tyrion met Penny, he's never really had much positive and honest interaction with women. Sansa was his forced child bride, Shae a paid for whore, Tysha, while honest and good to start with, ended up tarnished and depressing. He never met his mother and his sister hates him.

Whether or not you want to classify those as misogynist, they are least come dangerously close. However, if we see Tyrion with a female friend (Penny) and a female boss (Dany) this could change to the better.

It's not like if you have some misogynist views you are doomed to forever live your life as one.

i was with you until you brought up Dany. am i the only one assuming Euron is going to feed her to drogon?

Though he was perfectly nice to Shae until she sold him out.

[IronSuitor]

But this is exactly what Sansa laments, that she will not herself have any input in her choice of husbands.

But this is exactly what Sansa laments, that she will not herself have any input in her choice of husbands. IT's also completely rational why should would have this aversion, since so far, her arranged marriages have been terrible. Ned wanted to find her someone brave, gentle and strong, and I think that had been something and older Sansa would have had an easier time accepting, plus most likely Ned would have given her a couple of different choices. I also very much doubt he would have forced her had she not wanted to. So I'd say yes, Sansa's chances of having any agency with regards to her own marriage vanished when Ned disappeared out of the picture. Unless she can create that agency herself, which is almost the point of her character arc.

Getting married off to random bloke 3 (Harry the Heir) hardly seems it, don't you agree?

Fathering a number of bastards have previously been used to demonstrate character flaws, and Westeros is not modern times. See Robert Baratheon, his many bastards, his whoring etc.

The point why Sansa isn't meant to stay with Harry the Heir is that all the major characters have all been introduced (GRRM has said so himself), Sansa being bartered off as a piece of meat to the highest bidder has been a running theme in her character development, and it's one she has come to dislike strongly herself. What you are suggesting is that she should accept being bartered off to some dude like a proper obedient, subservient little girl without any wish for her own destiny. What would be the point of even putting Sansa in the books if all she's going to manage is getting married off to some lordling in the Vale, settle down and have children? It would have been more interesting to read about Fat Walda or Gatehouse Ami in comparison.

It would be a 100% unsatisfactory ending.

Robert's whoring was a symptom of a bigger problem, we know nothing of Harry, for all we know he's had sex two times and got unlucky. If Sansa ends up finding, by accident, someone who actually cares about her for herself (Harry doesn't know she's the heir of Winterfell), that will be satisfactory enough for me. She's one of the few characters I'm interested in as a person, rather than a plot point. Some girls find it perfectly fine to end up with a nice boy and make some children, some boys want to do the same with a nice girl. Sansa doesn't need to be a war hero or a feminist icon, she just needs to stop being used.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Robert's whoring was a symptom of a bigger problem, we know nothing of Harry, for all we know he's had sex two times and got unlucky. If Sansa ends up finding, by accident, someone who actually cares about her for herself (Harry doesn't know she's the heir of Winterfell), that will be satisfactory enough for me. She's one of the few characters I'm interested in as a person, rather than a plot point. Some girls find it perfectly fine to end up with a nice boy and make some children, some boys want to do the same with a nice girl. Sansa doesn't need to be a war hero or a feminist icon, she just needs to stop being used.

She's already had three. She doesn't know a good thing when its staring her in the face.

[IronSuitor]

She's already had three. She doesn't know a good thing when its staring her in the face.

Three? Surely the sadist Joffrey's not the first? The Hound was cute in his own way but not capable of that kind of a relationship and Tyrion didn't even love her himself. Even if she had been attracted to him he would have been miserable with the thought of despoiling such an innocent, pure child.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Oh, I don't think it's written as a Gender thing, but interpreted by the readers in such a way, i.e. Tyrion is cut more slack than say, Sansa or Cersei.

but that's because Tyrion is competent.

Sansa's entire character development has been to shed the disillusions as well, so she's pretty far removed from the little girl fawning over Loras Tyrell.

Tyrion is older, more experienced, smarter in most ways yet he has a severe short coming when it comes to pretty women and women in general.

Throughout the series, we have seen him sympathise a lot of cripples, bastards and broken things, like Jon or Bran, yet look at his interaction with Shae. She's of a far lower social status than him, really pretty and even though he tries to keep her safe, is that for her sake, or his?He wants her to be all lovey dovey with him, yet he wants a combined servant and sex worker, he doesn't want an equal. Their relationship is horribly unequal and although Tyrion knows he's paying for it, he likes to delude himself over and over again about it.

that's not really his fault. and i find it hard to believe she loved him either.

Overall, through the series, he has no functional relationships with women. This is possibly getting better with Penny, but before that, we never hear of any positive relationships with any female. His mother died giving birth to him, the women around him while he grew up were only there because of Tywin's money. Tysha loved him, but look where that got her?

that's what he's paying for, its called the girl friend experience. Sasha Grey made a movie about it. And not wanting to have an equal relationship is not a crime. Genna Lannister doesn't have an equal relationship with her husband. Same sex couples often don't have "equal" relationships. Tyrion wants to be in control because he doesn't want to be hurt. Which is understandable, given his history.

And even if he claimed to do so, he still wasn't beneath raping her as no 201.

wait a minute, who said he raped her?

So I'd say Tyrion has an extremely complicated relationship to women, which he needs to sort out, somehow. Maybe with the help of Penny and Dany? Without actually facing those issues, he stands very little chance of ever having a good relationship or a happy marriage.

yeah he does. Generally because of the abuse inflicted upon him by his father and his sister.

[Lyanna Stark]

Robert's whoring was a symptom of a bigger problem, we know nothing of Harry, for all we know he's had sex two times and got unlucky. If Sansa ends up finding, by accident, someone who actually cares about her for herself (Harry doesn't know she's the heir of Winterfell), that will be satisfactory enough for me. She's one of the few characters I'm interested in as a person, rather than a plot point. Some girls find it perfectly fine to end up with a nice boy and make some children, some boys want to do the same with a nice girl. Sansa doesn't need to be a war hero or a feminist icon, she just needs to stop being used.

But in that case, you are ignoring Sansa's entire character development. What does Sansa actually feel when once again, she's faced with a forced marriage she had no say in, to a man she's never met? Despite doing her best to hide her feelings from Littlefinger, it's pretty obvious she's not happy about it.

Several times during ASOS and AFFC, she laments that nobody will want her for_her, it's all about her claim. She's not paired off with Harry the Heir because he's a nice bloke that will protect her, she's paired off with him because of her claim. Which, by the way, what was she did not want.

It won't make any sense for Sansa from a character development point of view to have her accept that fate and be an obedient wife to random bloke Harry. Besides, it also makes no sense that she should randomly fall in love with some guy when she knows the only reason she is paired with him is, again, her claim.

What we see of Sansa in ASOS and AFFC is that her desire is to make her own choices and not to be thrown around like a ragdoll. Yet another forced marriage will not satisfy this at all. It will just be another arrangement she had no say in. In fact, Sansa goes so far as to say she never wants to be married again, ever. Clearly, she has an issue with not having a choice, and Harry is not her choice.

Marrying her off to Harry would not stop her being used, it would perpetuate it, since he was not of Sansa's choosing.

It's also interesting that you accept Harry, but discard Sandor Clegane, since so far the only man who has shown any interest in Sansa_as_a_person is him. Tyrion wants her for her claim, Littlefinger for her claim and her similarity to Cat, while the Hound has no interest in her mother, nor her claim, he just saved her from the mob, tried to warn her about Joffrey and lied to cover for her on several occasions. And offered to take her out of Kings Landing away from the Lannisters, too, without having anything to gain from it. Both Tyrion and LF have lots to gain from Sansa, but Sandor has nothing. In fact, lying to cover for her and offering to take her out of KL are both treasonous actions vs his employers (the Lannisters) which could result in punishment or his death had they been found out. So it's pretty clear that he is so far the only one who acts completely selflessly around Sansa, and who steps outside the authority he has as well. Tyrion stepping in to save her from Joffrey's beatings was within his authority to do, but the Hounds actions were often outside of anything he was actually allowed to do.

[IronSuitor]

But in that case, you are ignoring Sansa's entire character development. What does Sansa actually feel when once again, she's faced with a forced marriage she had no say in, to a man she's never met? Despite doing her best to hide her feelings from Littlefinger, it's pretty obvious she's not happy about it.

Several times during ASOS and AFFC, she laments that nobody will want her for_her, it's all about her claim. She's not paired off with Harry the Heir because he's a nice bloke that will protect her, she's paired off with him because of her claim. Which, by the way, what was she did not want.

It won't make any sense for Sansa from a character development point of view to have her accept that fate and be an obedient wife to random bloke Harry. Besides, it also makes no sense that she should randomly fall in love with some guy when she knows the only reason she is paired with him is, again, her claim.

What we see of Sansa in ASOS and AFFC is that her desire is to make her own choices and not to be thrown around like a ragdoll. Yet another forced marriage will not satisfy this at all. It will just be another arrangement she had no say in. In fact, Sansa goes so far as to say she never wants to be married again, ever. Clearly, she has an issue with not having a choice, and Harry is not her choice.

Marrying her off to Harry would not stop her being used, it would perpetuate it, since he was not of Sansa's choosing.

Again, no highborn woman or man truly chooses their spouse. If Sansa is happy being unmarried, so be it, I wouldn't blame her. If she found happiness with a man despite her past, despite the circumstances of the match, I'd be just as happy. My impression from Sansa when we last saw her is that she's numb and cares about little more than survival.

[Lyanna Stark]

Again, no highborn woman or man truly chooses their spouse.

You keep saying this, but this is exactly what Sansa is rebelling against, after having been forcibly married off or paired off with various men. This is the whole point of her character development, to see that being married off to someone highborn is empty and not like the songs. She's been manhandled and thrown around, and now LF is teaching her the Game of Thrones, and how to not be a pawn. Using "other highborn women get married off as well" as an excuse is to invalidate the plot around Sansa and where it's going. Why is she learning the Game of Thrones if she's supposed to be Harry's little subservient obedient wife? Why is she put through the grinder with several arranged marriages only to do a 180 and decide she is suddenly happy with an arranged marriage? That makes no sense what so ever, plot wise.

If Sansa is happy being unmarried, so be it, I wouldn't blame her. If she found happiness with a man despite her past, despite the circumstances of the match, I'd be just as happy. My impression from Sansa when we last saw her is that she's numb and cares about little more than survival.

At the moment, her marriage to Tyrion works as her plot armour against further marriages, including Harry and Sweetrobin. LF can announce the betrothal, but further than that he can't really take it until the marriage with Tyrion is annulled.

If the foreshadowing in the books is anything to go for, it's already been indicated which man she herself fancies.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Three? Surely the sadist Joffrey's not the first? The Hound was cute in his own way but not capable of that kind of a relationship and Tyrion didn't even love her himself. Even if she had been attracted to him he would have been miserable with the thought of despoiling such an innocent, pure child.

Tyrion, The Hound, and Petyr. probably the three best men in Westeros, maybe Euron >The Hound. She's had two more opportunities than she deserved.

[IronSuitor]

You keep saying this, but this is exactly what Sansa is rebelling against, after having been forcibly married off or paired off with various men. This is the whole point of her character development, to see that being married off to someone highborn is empty and not like the songs. She's been manhandled and thrown around, and now LF is teaching her the Game of Thrones, and how to not be a pawn. Using "other highborn women get married off as well" as an excuse is to invalidate the plot around Sansa and where it's going. Why is she learning the Game of Thrones if she's supposed to be Harry's little subservient obedient wife? Why is she put through the grinder with several arranged marriages only to do a 180 and decide she is suddenly happy with an arranged marriage? That makes no sense what so ever, plot wise.

At the moment, her marriage to Tyrion works as her plot armour against further marriages, including Harry and Sweetrobin. LF can announce the betrothal, but further than that he can't really take it until the marriage with Tyrion is annulled.

If the foreshadowing in the books is anything to go for, it's already been indicated which man she herself fancies.

She wasn't unhappy with her previous marriages because of who they were, not because they were arranged. She could very well be learning the game of thrones to be Harry's Lady Macbeth for all I know, or to stand up for herself and bring some hell-fire on littlefinger's manipulative ass. All I know is that her journey is unlikely to boil down to such a facile point as "it's better to choose your spouse for yourself."