Sansa and Tyrion predictions

[lostinwesteros]

@ Lyanna Stark

Got it.

[lostinwesteros]

sorry, double post

[Lady Kraken]

Warning, very long post ahead, I apologize. I'll try to be objective in my opinion, as I'm really not at all attached to any of Sansa's current potential love interests working out--I mean, the one I like the most is Petyr, and I think she needs to get the hell away from him ASAP. So here are my thoughts and the reasons why:

For me, it's pretty clear that Martin doesn't intend to have Sansa and Tyrion fall in love during the course of the story at least, hence my earlier comment saying that if they do end up staying together, it will be initially for political reasons. While they are married and there are many pages invested in their interactions, there is far less emotional investment put into these two characters then there is with Sandor and even, arguably, Petyr, unless you count awkward silences and forced dinner table small talk about overcooked peas as emotional investment.

Tyrion tells Sansa that he is her husband now and it's time to put away her armor of courtesy, but she never does, if anything she only makes it stronger. She doesn't open up to him or trust him, and it's made clear that he doesn't trust her either. Sansa spends more time thinking What does he want me to say? then actually saying anything. Tyrion opens up to her briefly about Tysha once, and she engages in the conversation, but then he shuts down and never tries this again as far as I can remember. When the two go their separate ways at the end of ASoS, they still have no real idea about who the other really is as a person.

Now, that being said, it will be difficult for Martin to find the space to write a convincing love story for the two when/if they are reunited. I find it hard to believe that Sansa will suddenly reevaluate her marriage and decide she wants it without Tyrion actually being there to prompt it. Tyrion is currently associated with particularly traumatic memories for her--the sham wedding, the wedding night, all the Lannisters have done to the Starks, not to mention that Petyr told her the Tysha story. While she does have some positive memories of him as well, I can't see any of them outweighing these negative ones. She has recognized he is a decent and even kind person, but that doesn’t change that he’s a Lannister and that the marriage caused Sansa great pain and embarrassment…as it did for Tyrion as well.

Tyrion still has a lot on his to-do list as far as I can see: meet up with Dany, help her raise an army, deal with the potential dragon-stealing Greyjoy brothers, invade Westeros, conquer Casterly Rock, kill Cersei… and so on. Finding and wooing Sansa is not high on the list of priorities, if it's there at all. With only two books left, I just don’t know if there will be the time to alter their current relationship convincingly. Because he is a great writer, I believe Martin would have explored their relationship and how their personalities mesh in more depth if he planned on them falling in love later, but he opted to keep their marriage very awkward and shallow to the end. It is hard for me to believe that Tyrion showing up on a dragon with the Queen who refers to Sansa’s father as a usurper’s dog would suddenly change this.

In contrast, there has been emotional investment in Sansa and the Hound’s relationship since the first book—with Sandor’s drunken confession about Gregor, Sandor rescuing her from the riot, the Blackwater incident, Sansa’s false memory of the kiss that never really was... Sansa is also constantly comparing the men around her to the Hound (Tyrion--he’s even uglier than the Hound, Petyr--he didn’t lift a finger to protect me in King’s Landing, not like the Hound, and so on).

Also, it’s important to note her physical reactions to the two men. After she sings the Hound the Mother’s song, “some instinct” makes her reach out and cup his cheek with her fingers. She’s not even sure why, but she does it. In contrast, when Petyr tells her widowhood will become her, she feels her tummy flutter. She does not want Tyrion to die--illustrated by her continually telling Petyr that he’s innocent--but she can’t help but feel a “flutter” as the prospect of being out of the marriage. Sansa can try to rationalize and reevaluate her marriage all she wants, but that won't change what she subconsciously desires.

Additionally, Sansa is very aware of people wanting her for her claim and not her. She internally accuses Tyrion of wanting her claim more than once, and I assume she'll realize Petyr's less than altruistic motives soon enough. To go even further, Tyrion wants Tysha, Petyr wants another chance with Cat, but Sandor... well, Sandor just appears to want Sansa. He also doesn't display any of the political ambitions that Tyrion and Petyr do.

The Hound and Tyrion also appear to be on very different paths at the moment--Tyrion is bitter and set on revenge/the destruction of his enemies (which I don't blame him for), whereas Sandor is (most likely) recovering on Quiet Isle. Sansa sang the Mother’s song to him when they last met, and now he at least appears to be embracing religion as well, and piety is an important aspect of Sansa’s character that Tyrion simply does not understand. Sandor and Tyrion are also set up as enemies. After Blackwater, the Hound laments that he should’ve killed Tyrion years ago, and he expresses a similar sentiment when he learns with Arya that Tyrion and Sansa were married—if Sansa and Sandor meet again, it stands to reason that Sandor will do all he can to keep Sansa out of having to go back to the marriage she didn’t want and would have no qualms about killing Tyrion. Why work to establish this enmity if it means nothing?

Not to mention the loads of foreshadowing: Robert saying Ned should get her a dog, "A hound will die for you, but never lie to you," Sansa's connection with the dog at the Fingers... there's probably more, but I don't have the books on me.

And finally, there’s the cloaks… in my opinion, the most convincing hint that Sansa and Sandor have a more important future than Tyrion and Sansa. Each of Sansa’s three “suitors” (Petyr, Tyrion, Sandor) give her their cloak. The changing of the cloaks is an important part of the marriage ceremony, and Sansa herself associates the cloak with a husband offering his new wife his protection during her wedding. When each man presents his cloak, he also offers to protect her...

When Tyrion offers his cloak, Sansa actively rejects it by refusing to kneel. When Petyr offers his cloak, she passively accepts it, as he puts it on her without asking, but she doesn’t refuse it. But when Sandor leaves his Kingsguard cloak after Blackwater, Sansa actively accepts it by actually draping it over herself to protect her from the cold. For me, Martin is saying something here. It may be a strange and unsettling relationship, but it is a relationship that has been explored in far more depth than the relationship between Tyrion and Sansa, in my opinion.

Finally, both Tyrion and Sansa don't think on their marriage positively. In fact, the only time either of them really even brings it up is to conveniently use it as a shield--Tyrion from Penny, Sansa from Harry. It may be convenient for them, but they're not emotionally invested--perhaps foreshadowing a future politically-motivated marriage. Though I think it's pretty clear from the text that Sandor and Sansa have some things to work out first.

Just my two cents, of course! No offense meant to anyone else and their opinions. :)

[Christina Ceriddwynn]

Nothing to do with Sansa and Tyrion....or maybe it does....considering Jaime sent Brienne off to find Sansa to keep her safe and is now following Brienne to....save Sansa.

I honestly do believe Jaime and Tyrion DO love each other and regret what has come between them. Jaime was made to follow the lie about Tysha due to Tywin. Once Tywin was gone, Jaime came forth and WILLINGLY confessed to Tyrion before committing HIGH treason and setting him free. Jaime risked everything when he freed Tyrion. That was done for love for the short man. It also weighed on his conscious, obviously, if he confessed to Tyrion.

Right now, Tyrion is hurt and angry but hopefully he will understand and forgive Jaime and know Jaime does love him and what he risked for him.

It would be interesting if it turns out to be Jaime who ends up protecting Sansa, even if its just finding her and whisking her to someplace safe so she can "disappear" as he once said she should do. There is something about big brother saving little brother's wife.

I'm of the belief Brienne may just bring Jaime and Sansa to the Quiet Isle as it is a safe refuge and that is how Sandor will come back into the picture. The whole setup of the QI could not have just been to explain what happened to Sandor. GRRM could've left us with the assumption he died and ended the story there. The helm is just to keep Sandor in the story indirectly.

Sandor and Sansa do have unfinished business together as he is the only one she really does trust at this point.

Tyrion....Penny may be his salvation with women. Whether it means love between them or she just heals his soul and shows him how to finally accept being a dwarf and learn to BE HAPPY, something he does NOT know how to be. Her love for her brother may also help him to forgive Jaime. She LOVED her brother and would probably forgive anything just to have her brother back. That kind of love could rub off on Tyrion.

Me? with Tyrion....I feel his true salvation is tied to him and Jaime reconciling. Tywin was a shit for a father.....no comment on the bitch Cersei....he needs Jaime and right now Jaime is feeling VERY alone and needs him as well. Together, Tyrion and Jaime could indeed rule VERY well. Tyrion also does love his niece and nephew, Myrcella and Tommen. He has shown true affection for them. He may help Jaime cross the bridge to being a father once Cersei is tossed from this world.

[PatrickStormborn]

Reasons Sansa does want Tyrion:

1. Tyrion has a major claim to the West, he is the heir to casterly rock and the gold mines that come with it

2. The Lannisters and Starks are at each others throat, war famine and winter is an ugly combination, a political marriage is the perfect peace treaty

3. Sansa has much anger and hatred towards Cersei, Tyrion & Dragons will be a welcome site

4. When she finds out LF and Harry the Heir are dicks, she has a good excuse why she can't get married

Tyrion has said nothing about Sansa being a dimwit, he knows she is smart and can hold her tounge. She may be hot and have a nice title but thats no reason why Tyrion can't fall in love with her personality. And Tyrion getting married to Sansa was bad how? Better then to Lancel the Wineskin Warrior

ETA. The Hound scares Sansa every time they meat...

1. No, he really doesn't. He killed the last Lord of Casterly Rock, making him a traitor. Cersei is Lady of the Rock, unless Tyrion gets the help of Daenerys.

I hope Sansa and Daenerys rule together as Queen Regnant and Queen Consort. No men in the series are good enough for them. :)

[JKeats]

I hope Sansa and Daenerys rule together as Queen Regnant and Queen Consort. No men in the series are good enough for them. :)

Is this self-parody?

[Winter's Knight]

1. No, he really doesn't. He killed the last Lord of Casterly Rock, making him a traitor. Cersei is Lady of the Rock, unless Tyrion gets the help of Daenerys.

I hope Sansa and Daenerys rule together as Queen Regnant and Queen Consort. No men in the series are good enough for them. :)

Let me introduce you to Briennsa. :wub:

[Thunderfist]

Let me introduce you to Briennsa. :wub:

I´d ship your Briennsa theory but there would be some issues with succesion. Unless they had some sort of polygamous marriage involving at least one male, the dynasty would end pretty fast.

[Winter's Knight]

I´d ship your Briennsa theory but there would be some issues with succesion. Unless they had some sort of polygamous marriage involving at least one male, the dynasty would end pretty fast.

Dynasty? Rickon will carry on the Stark name. Dany is a Targ and may take on a male consort-there is a precedent for polygamy.

[Thunderfist]

Dynasty? Rickon will carry on the Stark name. Dany is a Targ and may take on a male consort-there is a precedent for polygamy.

I misunderstood, I thought you meant that Brienne and Sansa would be a couple and rule Westeros as queens and in that case I figured their dynasty would be short-lived. But hey, assuming he´s not too crispy, they could marry Loras Tyrell and make it three queens.

[jarl the climber]

The question seems to be what Sansa really wants at the end of the day. Not really sure how things are going to play out in the Vale and how that effects her and what she wants. She doesn't really seem to have any long term goals other than staying alive. Her ability to exercise any of her claims would depend on her influencing somebdy with that kind of power. This changes somewhat if the North is restored to the Starks again as she could rely on her family to protect her and press her claims.

The advantage to her in the Tyrion mariage at this point is that it would allow her to rally whatever support Tyrion might have in Westeros(Mountian clans?, Stokeworth?, Western dissedents?, Aunt Gemma?) and maintain her independence ouitside of a marriage. Potentialy she could have the support of the North and the Vale based on familial relations. At the same time since the marriage is not consumated it can be set aside if a desirable marriage can be arranged. Being Sansa Lannister could be a desirable title for her as long as Tyrion is on the other side of the Narrow Sea. When he returns to Weasteros a real descision would have to be made.

What effect will her being Tyrions wife have on the way she is treated By Aegon and Conington? So it could be a priority of other people to preserve that marriage if Aegon supports Tyrion fo Casterly Rock.

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

I think Sansa previous relationship with Tyrion and being married to Tyrion will matter less in regards of the Lannister side actions and more in regards to the Daenerys faction. I don't see their marriage relationship continuing as a marriage relationship but I do think that Tyrion might reappear in the Vale perhaps along with a Dragon.

[jarl the climber]

I think Sansa previous relationship with Tyrion and being married to Tyrion will matter less in regards of the Lannister side actions and more in regards to the Daenerys faction. I don't see their marriage relationship continuing but I do think that Tyrion might reappear in the Vale perhaps along with a Dragon.

We also can't rule out how Conington might try to play this card if the marriage stays intact and Sansa is willing to play ball with them. I'm under the impression that Aegon is disposed favorably to Tyrion and would see his reaching Dany and telling her whats happening with him as being beneficial an act of bravery and service. Varys must be aware that Tyrion was seen in Volantis at the Merchants House in the company of Ser Jorah and they were looking for passage East.

Since Sansa will probaly be disinherited by Robbs will Northern claim is weak and reduces the threat her claim poses to house Stark. Since Tyrion can't use her to claim Winterfell makes the marriage less of a threat.

Her engagement to Lord Robert Arryn made her realize that there are things worse that being married to Tyrion. As long as he is across the Sea it allows her to mainain independence and a way to honorably rebuff any marriage proposals. Its unclear how Tyrion would react to the continuation of his marriage. Sansa could throw a curveball at people by becoming sexually active then claiming it was Tyrion who had her maidenhead thus saying that their marriage had been consumated. I think a lot of it has to do with what Sansa wants. If Tyrion has to pick between his hand and Sansa I think Sansa wins, Sansa has all ready won that tilt.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

Remember, Tyrion was also miserable in this marriage. He's still obsessed with Tysha, but for everyday giggles he wants a saucy little minx like Shea, and on top of all that, he wants to be luuuuuurved. Sansa's not going to fill any of his needs, and once either Rickon shows up or Robb's will is published, she'll lose her most attractive feature, i.e., her claim to Winterfell. So on his return to Westeros -- with Irri or Jhiqui on his arm, who knows -- HE may want to get rid of Sansa. Which would probably good idea because I don't care how much religion Sandor gets, if he's within arm's length of Tyrion the result will be one dead dwarf.

[IronSuitor]

I'm rooting for Sansa to settle down into a nice loving marriage with Harry the Heir, but hey, I'm a romantic. At this point the most surprising thing GRRM could do to her is make her a happy ending, almost like a song...

Tyrion hates himself every time he thinks about her sexually and she is revolted by him. This is not workable relationship material, God knows I've tried...

[Lyanna Stark]

I'm rooting for Sansa to settle down into a nice loving marriage with Harry the Heir, but hey, I'm a romantic. At this point the most surprising thing GRRM could do to her is make her a happy ending, almost like a song...

Tyrion hates himself every time he thinks about her sexually and she is revolted by him. This is not workable relationship material, God knows I've tried...

Harry the Heir already has two bastard children with random women. He hardly seems like an ideal husband to Sansa. I'm sure he's pretty enough, but as Sansa has learnt (to her sorrow) prettiness isn't everything.

Besides, Harry also suffers from the stigma of being yet another one in the line of forced suitors, i.e. Sansa did not pick him herself, she has no choice in this either.

[The Storm Queen]

1. No, he really doesn't. He killed the last Lord of Casterly Rock, making him a traitor. Cersei is Lady of the Rock, unless Tyrion gets the help of Daenerys.

I hope Sansa and Daenerys rule together as Queen Regnant and Queen Consort. No men in the series are good enough for them. :)

I am not even the biggest Dany fan in the world but these two would be a force to be reckoned with. Their virtues and flaws would balance each other perfectly and they could play good cop/bad cop with their foes :-)

[Teal'c]

@ Lady Kraken:

Nice catch on the cloaks. I do think Sansa and Sandor belong together; hoping to see it happen.

[Fred Stark]

I have said this many time based on her experiences and her last chapter in A feast For Crows ,she has no desire to get married to anyone.she sees marriage as something so bitter and who can blame her for that. Joffrey,Tyrion,Marrilion ,LF and even Sandor who i find to be sweet but he really need to brush his skills courting women.

I think she just wants to be back in Winterfell and I hope gets there.

[Winter's Knight]

1. No, he really doesn't. He killed the last Lord of Casterly Rock, making him a traitor. Cersei is Lady of the Rock, unless Tyrion gets the help of Daenerys.

I hope Sansa and Daenerys rule together as Queen Regnant and Queen Consort. No men in the series are good enough for them. :)

Damnation Patrick, I had such a sweet image of Sansa ruling the North with Brienne by her side and you ruin it by suggesting DanySan (Sanearys?). Now I am confused.