Global Diversity SFF Thread

[Sci-2]

There is no responsibility on the part of any author to reflect some sort of viewpoint of global diversity.

I think it's more the authors who fuck up representing real cultures, only get their information from expats, and so on. It's a challenge against laziness that ignorance of the consumer allows people to get away with.

Narrative affects how we see things, and the more garbage that caters to ignorance the less worth such art has in the modern world.

Here's an example of good stuff:

Immersion, by de Bodard, might be the best piece of SFF and one of the best shorts (and I read a LOT of shorts) I've read in some time. It perfectly captures that swimming against the flood feeling of resisting the mindset that your own culture is less than the one that is drowning it.

http://worldsf.wordp...aditya-bidikar/

not sure what i think of it yet, as it is still sinking in, but i'm having a difficult time wondering what the point of it all was. it was interesting and everything but i'm not sure that i get it.

I liked the story, though it sort of had too many pieces. It was about panpsychism and global consciousness leading to divinity BUT also about how we treat and think about the elderly and growing old.

[Galactus]

That kind of romantic-reactionary woe-is-me nationalism is something I'm deeply suspicious of. Oh sure, it starts out harmless enough but it's exactly the kind of stuff that killed millions last century.

[Sci-2]

That kind of romantic-reactionary woe-is-me nationalism is something I'm deeply suspicious of. Oh sure, it starts out harmless enough but it's exactly the kind of stuff that killed millions last century.

?

[Galactus]

?

It's all very 19th century balkans over the entire thing.

[Sci-2]

It's all very 19th century balkans over the entire thing.

What is the "It" that is 19th century? The Bodard story? My thoughts on global diversity?

[Sci-2]

Steampunk is Facism for Nice People?

A few days ago, while working on a short story (see below) I made the comment on Twitter that I see Steampunk as “Fascism for nice people”. This was partly borne out from the story below, partly, of course, from the disconnect I feel at what that term, “steampunk” has come to represent in recent years and the worrying (to me) political and ideological implications of it....

[Datepalm]

Um...אז מה עשית בזה?

Sorry, thats the phrase that kept popping into my head and I couldn't resist, since we're all decolonizing here. Roughly translated, it means "so what did you do by that?". Just...nothing in the story/article says anything, you know? I can't spot any commentary or a point or what. It's just seemingly an opportunity to indulge in Nazi pulp and write down "dirty jew" a lot. Go you. (and I love fascism. I do, I see it everywhere.)

[Sci-2]

Well, I put the question mark because I don't really know anything about steampunk.

Here's an interesting addition to the topic, Larry's post on Brazilian Steampunk.

[Seli]

Um...אז מה עשית בזה?

Sorry, thats the phrase that kept popping into my head and I couldn't resist, since we're all decolonizing here. Roughly translated, it means "so what did you do by that?". Just...nothing in the story/article says anything, you know? I can't spot any commentary or a point or what. It's just seemingly an opportunity to indulge in Nazi pulp and write down "dirty jew" a lot. Go you. (and I love fascism. I do, I see it everywhere.)

My guess he is attempting to point out some of the problems in steampunk (and/or SF?) by replacing the Brits/Yanks with the Nazi's and oh so subtly twisting some well known works in the process (although I don't readily recognize them).

Of course he replaced 'the other' in steampunk novels (asians? germans? I don't read enough of it to know) with the nazi 'other'.

For me it is a triumph of obscurantism over message. But then I might not be the intended audience.

[Sci-2]

If she licks the wallpaper, will anyone notice?

The taste of Mrs. Wull’s wallpaper has been a long-standing question in Rosa’s mind. It’s the vibrant red of prickly pear preserves, striped with veins of minty green. When she was small, she imagined it tasting like figs crossed with raspberries, sweet and sappy and juicy-tart all at the same time. Now that she’s older and supposedly wiser, she knows that wallpaper, no matter how colorful or tempting, is just wallpaper, dust-flavored and dry as a moth’s wing rasping across your disappointed tongue. Saint Nicholas isn’t real, true love is a lie, and the only thing that won’t let you down in the world is its ability to let you down. The past few weeks have been, if nothing else, something of a learning experience in that regard.

Rosa knows all of this, but it doesn’t stop the stubborn five-year-old part of her from wanting to try. Feeling a little ridiculous, she sidles over to a corner, extends the tip of her tongue, and gives the wallpaper a tentative swipe. She braces for the bitterness of boiled glue, the chemical tang of several generations of mothballs and kerosene smoke. She prepares for life’s bad taste in her mouth, inevitable as wrinkles or scorpions in the kitchen...."

Her Words Like Hunting Vixens Spring: http://www.lightspeedmagazine.com/fiction/her-words-like-hunting-vixens-spring/

[Sci-2]

Strabismus by Stefan Grabinski

Stefan Grabiński (1887 – 1936) was a Polish writer of horror fiction who considered himself an expert on demonology and magic. Some critics have called him the “Polish Poe” or the “Polish Lovecraft,” and suggested he believed in the supernatural forces in his stories. Known primarily as a novelist, he wrote many short stories, including those under the name Stephen Żalny....

He had attached himself to me, I don’t know how or when.

His name was Brzechwa, Jozef Brzechwa. What a name! Something about it fastens and hooks onto the nerves, irritating them with its grating resonance. He was cross-eyed. He especially saw poorly out of his right eye, which peered out in a stone gaze under ruddy lashes. His small, brick-colored repulsive face grimaced perpetually in a malicious sneer of half-irony, as if in this sorry way it could avenge its own ugliness and squalor. A tiny, rusty moustache, twirled rakishly upward, moved constantly, like the pincers of a poisonous scarabaeus — sharp, stinging, evil.

[Seli]

A small historical work, showing how a lot of cultures have the same narrow focus. I just read (a translation of) the novella "The Year 4338" by Odoevksy. It dates back to 1835 and shows the influences of it's time. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year_4338

Russia is the centre of culture and science, the Chinese are just catching up after years of stagnations and admire everything Russian (the viewpoint is a Chinese person visiting Russia), Germany is lost in the mists of history (paper was too fragile) and the USA is a militaristic, capitalist society (only mentioned in passing).

A nice curiosity.

[Larry.]

Somewhat related to this thread are the series of Locus Online Roundtable discussions on non-Anglophone SF that have been posted this month. My post on Argentine author Angélica Gorodischer and Portuguese writer David Soares is only the latest (links to some of the others are in the left-side sidebar). There are posts on Croatian SF, French graphic novels, Filipino SF, among others. Might be of interest to some reading this.

[Arthmail]

I think it's more the authors who fuck up representing real cultures, only get their information from expats, and so on. It's a challenge against laziness that ignorance of the consumer allows people to get away with.

Narrative affects how we see things, and the more garbage that caters to ignorance the less worth such art has in the modern world.

I've seen this theme before, anger at cultural appropriation in fiction. And what do i say to that? Fuck that. I'm Canadian and i don't own the rights to my countries culture or history, nor do i own any part of my historical homeland of Scotland.

People may live in a country, but they do not own the rights to that country. They do not get to be the mouthpiece for it, nor should they feel that their view is somehow correct. This is stilted and narrow minded thinking that does nothing. Literature is often a thought excercise, and sure, some things will be wrong. But two people can be from the same country and same city and see it all very differently. A person may not agree with anothers take on their culture and or society, but who the fuck honestly cares?

I read an article from a very articulate, intelligent, greek blogger. I can't remember much of the details, but she was bemoaning the fact that people use Greek culture in fiction and movies all of the time for their own purposes. And i almost punched my monitor. She is not the arbitor of her cultures history, with the right to choose who says what. No one is. This notion that cultural appropriation in fiction is wrong is so completely anthithetical to what i believe that i find it intellectually repugnant.

Edit: this is not necessarily directed at you, Sciborg2, but the idea as it is presented.

[Seli]

...

I read an article from a very articulate, intelligent, greek blogger. I can't remember much of the details, but she was bemoaning the fact that people use Greek culture in fiction and movies all of the time for their own purposes. And i almost punched my monitor. She is not the arbitor of her cultures history, with the right to choose who says what. No one is. This notion that cultural appropriation in fiction is wrong is so completely anthithetical to what i believe that i find it intellectually repugnant.

I think I read the same bit, she usually has well-thought out pieces. A bit of protectiveness is fine, but if I recall correctly she also complained about the use of ancient and classical greece. Which is stranger, since that bit of history has been claimed as founding events for most of Europe.

[Sci-2]

reading this now - i didn't take it as directed at me, so no worries!

[Galleymac]

I tend to think... once you've had an empire you don't get to be quite so protectionist. You've overrun people, you've influenced them -- they sort of have a big claim too, now.

You can be a bit protectionist -- remind people about complexity, point out outright mistakes -- but banning people from exploring their influences (often unwilling at the start) seems futile to me.

[TerraPrime]

I've seen this theme before, anger at cultural appropriation in fiction. And what do i say to that? Fuck that.

Let's perhaps draw some lines here.

If an author incorporates elements of, say, Japanese culture, say Ikebana, into the story, that's not necessarily what is being criticized as cultural appropriation.

What *I* would consider as cultural appropriation worthy of criticizing is when an author not from the culture presents the culture through their own lens of warped perception of what that culture is like.

I can't stop people from using Chinese or East Asian cultures in their work or their creative endeavors, nor do I want to. But I think that's a bit different from saying that I can't criticize instances where I think the use is ill-done, either because they verged into racial/ethnic stereotyping or because they are exoticizing a different culture, or simply mischaracterizing the culture. In those cases, I feel entirely justified in saying criticizing their effort.

[Datepalm]

Surely, criticism is always allowed? WIthout getting into the whole Cencorship R Us debate again, I do quite enjoy stuff like, say, Valente on Yellow Blue Tibia, even while I think it doesn't actually undermine the novel in any way. (of course, this might just be because negative reviews are so often fun to read.)

I think the line is, or at least should be, between portrayals of a culture that are crudely stereotypical in ways that are distinctly modern, if not downright racist - say a psuedo-china where all the women are beautiful, submissive and mysterious and the men are shifty and desexualized, to pander to TP a bit. Thats...well, I won't say shouldn't have been written, but i'd be happier about the state of the world if it had been written differently. Thats actively offensive.

OTOH, there's portrayals, and uses and appropriations of culture which might well be inaccurate (because research is hard, seriously. It is. If we demanded that everyone who ever wrote a book with a medieval setting get a doctorate in it first, we won't have that many books. The same goes for anything else) or even deliberately skewed, because that skewing is what is necessary for the story...well, I guess i'm ok with that. It might make it unreadable for someone who can spot all those inaccuracies, and i'll enjoy it when they write scathing posts about incorrect gender declinations in the made up language based vaguely on a real language the poor author is using, but that's not something I would be up in arms about.

(I suppose theres a middle case where the author unawarely stumbles onto something genuinely offensive in the course of poor research, in which case, y'know, shut up and apologize and say you won't do it again and thanks for educating me, but it's not a reason to draw and quarter people on the internet either.)

[TerraPrime]

(I suppose theres a middle case where the author unawarely stumbles onto something genuinely offensive in the course of poor research, in which case, y'know, shut up and apologize and say you won't do it again and thanks for educating me, but it's not a reason to draw and quarter people on the internet either.)

Speaking of.

In Japanese Manga, Jewish mysticism is frequently referenced. I've seen plenty of examples of it, e.g. the missing 13th Hebrew tribe, Kabala, etc. When I saw those, I always felt that it was cultural appropriation in a bad way. It didn't feel like that the authors just failed at research, but rather, it was used because they thought it sounded exotic, and they read like 2 articles in a magazine about it, and they think their audience will also find it exotic and fitting and mysterious. Bleargh.