House Army numbers?

[King Aemon I]

Theon estimated that 10 Lannister troops fell for every 1 Stark troop. If he was on par Robb lost 1500 taking down Jamie's 15000.

That's in Whispering Wood.. Not siege of Riverrun..

In Whispering Wood Jaime had 400 men probably.. Rest was maintaining Riverrun siege...

[WakeTheDragon]

That's in Whispering Wood.. Not siege of Riverrun..

In Whispering Wood Jaime had 400 men probably.. Rest was maintaining Riverrun siege...

Your referring to the battle of the camps then? Jamie was already captive at this and this was basically a Lannister slaughter. We're given no exact figures in the book but by the way it is described to Tywin it was a horrendous defeat. Only 2000 lannisters got out and at no point did it even hint the Stark forces suffered even close to the losses you were suggesting.

[Summer is Ending]

If anything the ration was probably even worse, at least Kingslayer and his men were armed and mounted not to mention all the men in the camps that drowned themselves trying to cross the river.

Night attacks are dangerous and hard to pull off but when they pay off they can pay off big and that's what Robbs sounded like.

[Frey Pie]

That's in Whispering Wood.. Not siege of Riverrun..

In Whispering Wood Jaime had 400 men probably.. Rest was maintaining Riverrun siege...

I actually think Jaime had far more men. I dont have my books and the wikis against me but i believe someone put thte quote up of the battle and it said Jaime led two thirds of the Lannister horse

Your referring to the battle of the camps then? Jamie was already captive at this and this was basically a Lannister slaughter. We're given no exact figures in the book but by the way it is described to Tywin it was a horrendous defeat. Only 2000 lannisters got out and at no point did it even hint the Stark forces suffered even close to the losses you were suggesting.

I think a good few more then 2000 made it out, possibly double. In any case the Starks losses were minimal. Its probably the most stunning victory of the books, considering the class of army Robb was up against and the numbers

[Summer is Ending]

I actually think Jaime had far more men. I dont have my books and the wikis against me but i believe someone put thte quote up of the battle and it said Jaime led two thirds of the Lannister horse

I think a good few more then 2000 made it out, possibly double. In any case the Starks losses were minimal. Its probably the most stunning victory of the books, considering the class of army Robb was up against and the numbers

He was there and he was gone again, his silvery armor obscured by the trees once more. Others came behind him, long columns of them, knights and sworn swords and freeriders, three quarters of the Lannister horse.

And more importantly they were the elite of his army, the bulk of the lords it sounds like, the men that would be needed the most to keep order and give commands.

I vow, the Lannisters lost ten men for every one of ours that fell. We’ve taken close to a hundred knights captive, and a dozen lords bannermen. Lord Westerling, Lord Banefort, Ser Garth Greenfield, Lord Estren, Ser Tytos Brax, Mallor the Dornishman … and three Lannisters besides Jaime, Lord Tywin’s own nephews, two of his sister’s sons and one of his dead brother’s …”

[WakeTheDragon]

Anyways what makes this so difficult is the fact that all armies are constantly hiring more sellswords and in some instances, like the battle of the camps, those sellswords switch sides. Robb might have actually gained men in that fight.

[Frey Pie]

He was there and he was gone again, his silvery armor obscured by the trees once more. Others came behind him, long columns of them, knights and sworn swords and freeriders, three quarters of the Lannister horse.

And more importantly they were the elite of his army, the bulk of the lords it sounds like, the men that would be needed the most to keep order and give commands.

I vow, the Lannisters lost ten men for every one of ours that fell. We’ve taken close to a hundred knights captive, and a dozen lords bannermen. Lord Westerling, Lord Banefort, Ser Garth Greenfield, Lord Estren, Ser Tytos Brax, Mallor the Dornishman … and three Lannisters besides Jaime, Lord Tywin’s own nephews, two of his sister’s sons and one of his dead brother’s …”

Excellent thank you. The WW is far more significant for that. That means Jaime had 1500-2000 horsemen with him, all heavily armoured presumably with the ammount of lords there was in the procession.

People seem to see Jaime as an idiot, but he did have scouts, just defeated by the BF and his. He also had his camps defended by stakes and pallisades. This was never going to be an easy win for most generals

[WakeTheDragon]

I actually think Jaime had far more men. I dont have my books and the wikis against me but i believe someone put thte quote up of the battle and it said Jaime led two thirds of the Lannister horse

I think a good few more then 2000 made it out, possibly double. In any case the Starks losses were minimal. Its probably the most stunning victory of the books, considering the class of army Robb was up against and the numbers

In the book it states only 1 force of 2000 made it out in good order but your right more could have scattered and regrouped later although I doubt a it would be a whole 2000 more.

[Frey Pie]

a

Anyways what makes this so difficult is the fact that all armies are constantly hiring more sellswords and in some instances, like the battle of the camps, those sellswords switch sides. Robb might have actually gained men in that fight.

Interestingly enough we never here again anything about this Tyroshi sell-sword company. But Tywin lost at least two companies that we know of to the Starks. So anyone who thinks they werent winning the war should perhaps reconsider

[Summer is Ending]

In the book it states only 1 force of 2000 made it out in good order but your right more could have scattered and regrouped later although I doubt a it would be a whole 2000 more.

No.

Our south camp was under the command of Ser Forley Prester. He retreated in good order when he saw that the other camps were lost, with two thousand spears and as many bowmen, but the Tyroshi sellsword who led his freeriders struck his banners and went over to the foe.”

And as many bowmen, that's another two thousand right there. That's a force of four thousand retreating from the third camp not to mention however many of the men in the other two camps that managed to slip away from the battle and escape and there would have been plenty.

[E-Ro]

a

Interestingly enough we never here again anything about this Tyroshi sell-sword company. But Tywin lost at least two companies that we know of to the Starks. So anyone who thinks they werent winning the war should perhaps reconsider

Yea, it's pretty much crystal clear that before the ironborn invasion Robb was not only winning, but completely dominating the enemy. If not for the ironborn invasion whoever takes kl would be forced to accept his terms.

[Frey Pie]

In the book it states only 1 force of 2000 made it out in good order but your right more could have scattered and regrouped later although I doubt a it would be a whole 2000 more.

I thought the quote from the book was a Lannister force of roughly 2,000 spears and as many bowmen was left unmolested no?

[WakeTheDragon]

No.

Our south camp was under the command of Ser Forley Prester. He retreated in good order when he saw that the other camps were lost, with two thousand spears and as many bowmen, but the Tyroshi sellsword who led his freeriders struck his banners and went over to the foe.”

And as many bowmen, that's another two thousand right there. That's a force of four thousand retreating from the third camp not to mention however many of the men in the other two camps that managed to slip away from the battle and escape and there would have been plenty.

Ah good call so more did escape thanks for clearing that up.

[Frey Pie]

No.

Our south camp was under the command of Ser Forley Prester. He retreated in good order when he saw that the other camps were lost, with two thousand spears and as many bowmen, but the Tyroshi sellsword who led his freeriders struck his banners and went over to the foe.”

And as many bowmen, that's another two thousand right there. That's a force of four thousand retreating from the third camp not to mention however many of the men in the other two camps that managed to slip away from the battle and escape and there would have been plenty.

Im not entirely sure how many could slip away. It seemed fairly conclusive. Youve got rivers as natural boundaries, a force of horse coming from one end and a mixed force of foot and horse at the other. There doesnt seem to be a lot of room for running. We know the rivers were high, and look at what happend Lord Brax

[Frey Pie]

Yea, it's pretty much crystal clear that before the ironborn invasion Robb was not only winning, but completely dominating the enemy. If not for the ironborn invasion whoever takes kl would be forced to accept his terms.

Ah good old Balon......cant wait for the next thread where people defend him and say he was right to attack the North. Makes me all warm inside

[WakeTheDragon]

Yea, it's pretty much crystal clear that before the ironborn invasion Robb was not only winning, but completely dominating the enemy. If not for the ironborn invasion whoever takes kl would be forced to accept his terms.

Yeah Theon really did royally screw him. At that point the Lannisters were in big, big trouble.

[Summer is Ending]

Christ I just have to say Whispering Wood is even more brutal than I thought. A dozen heads of their Houses captured there. That's insane. It'd be like Robb losing Glover, Mormont, Tallhart, Bolton, Karstark, Hornwood, Cerwyn, Manderly, I don't even remember enough Northern Houses to make a full dozen. That's fucking crippling.

[Scipio Africanus]

Ah good old Balon......cant wait for the next thread where people defend him and say he was right to attack the North. Makes me all warm inside

Balon was a moron in so many ways. But the Ironborn invasion was an annoyance but it wouldn't have worked. If you think about it, after Theon captures Winterfell (and refuses to move from there) the Ironborn were in trouble. Yeah they captured an abandoned Moat Cailin and a few coastal areas. But Cassel with the help of Cerwyn would've retaken Winterfell eventually (Theon only had like a dozen guys at that point) and we later learn (through Reek) that the Crannogmen were pwning Ironborn badly at Moat Cailin. They would've been starved out given a few more weeks, as the Ironborn couldn't forage and were harrassed from the swamps.

If Robb's plan had been carried out, it would undoubtedly have included circemventing Moat Cailin's position and assaulting from the north, at which would've meant an equally poor defending position for the Ironborn as the Rangers have when attacked at Castle Black from the south.

No Robb's demise was Walder Heffner and Roose Bolton, not anything the Ironborn or Tywin cooked up (for on the battlefield).

Christ I just have to say Whispering Wood is even more brutal than I thought. A dozen heads of their Houses captured there. That's insane. It'd be like Robb losing Glover, Mormont, Tallhart, Bolton, Karstark, Hornwood, Cerwyn, Manderly, I don't even remember enough Northern Houses to make a full dozen. That's fucking crippling.

WW basically captured/killed Tywin's officer corps. He only had Kevan and the highly ineffectual Stefford Lannister as senior officers after WW. Guys like Clegane and Lorch were his attack dogs - lesser ranked officers good for commiting war crimes and inspiring terror but not good at strategy or relaying orders reliably.

That's why he lets Tyrion command a wing - because basically he's scraping the barrel.

[Frey Pie]

Balon was a moron in so many ways. But the Ironborn invasion was an annoyance but it wouldn't have worked. If you think about it, after Theon captures Winterfell (and refuses to move from there) the Ironborn were in trouble. Yeah they captured an abandoned Moat Cailin and a few coastal areas. But Cassel with the help of Cerwyn would've retaken Winterfell eventually (Theon only had like a dozen guys at that point) and we later learn (through Reek) that the Crannogmen were pwning Ironborn badly at Moat Cailin. They would've been starved out given a few more weeks, as the Ironborn couldn't forage and were harrassed from the swamps.

If Robb's plan had been carried out, it would undoubtedly have included circemventing Moat Cailin's position and assaulting from the north, at which would've meant an equally poor defending position for the Ironborn as the Rangers have when attacked at Castle Black from the south.

No Robb's demise was Walder Heffner and Roose Bolton, not anything the Ironborn or Tywin cooked up (for on the battlefield).

WW basically captured/killed Tywin's officer corps. He only had Kevan and the highly ineffectual Stefford Lannister as senior officers after WW. Guys like Clegane and Lorch were his attack dogs - lesser ranked officers good for commiting war crimes and inspiring terror but not good at strategy or relaying orders reliably.

That's why he lets Tyrion command a wing - because basically he's scraping the barrel.

Oh no doubt i completely agree with you. Had Balon sent in all of the man power he could muster the North would still eventually have thrown them back into the sea. It was doomed from the beginning and the only reason Balon did it was for a big up urs to the late great Ned

Interesting that so many great lords were in Jaimes army. Tywin however did have the highly capable Addam Marbrand and others such as Lord Lefford with him

[Damar]

WW basically captured/killed Tywin's officer corps. He only had Kevan and the highly ineffectual Stefford Lannister as senior officers after WW. Guys like Clegane and Lorch were his attack dogs - lesser ranked officers good for commiting war crimes and inspiring terror but not good at strategy or relaying orders reliably.

That's why he lets Tyrion command a wing - because basically he's scraping the barrel.

Christ I just have to say Whispering Wood is even more brutal than I thought. A dozen heads of their Houses captured there. That's insane. It'd be like Robb losing Glover, Mormont, Tallhart, Bolton, Karstark, Hornwood, Cerwyn, Manderly, I don't even remember enough Northern Houses to make a full dozen. That's fucking crippling.

I have to disagree in some degree, given the bannermen captured included guys like Westerling and distant Lannister cousins, not the more important ones like Marbrand or Crakehall. Sure it did some damage to the Lannister upper ranks, but Jaime was the only one anyone really give a damn about.