Aemon and Tyrion

[jblair]

Every time I re-read new things pop out at me. This one comes in GoT, when Tyrion visits the Wall. At dinner, Master Aemon suddenly speaks out for no good reason:

"Oh, I think that Lord Tyrion is quite a large man," Master Aemon said from the far end of the table. He spoke softly, yet the high officers of the Night's Watch all fell quiet, the better to hear what the ancient had to say. "I think he is a giant come among us, here at the end of the world."

The first couple of times I read that, I assumed it was just Aemon being nice and noting Tyrion's hidden gifts, and the end of the world of course referred to the Wall.

But thinking about it, that doesn't make very much sense. It seems rather strange for Aemon to randomly praise Tyrion, having no knowledge of him personally and no knowledge of Lannisters except for the fact that Tyrion's brother rammed a sword into Aerys' back. The dialogue itself seems even stranger, since it seems fraught with deeper meaning.

1. If you take Aemon literally, the End of the World is probably a good description for all the shit that's about to go down, the Winter to End All Winters.

2. If he literally meant the end of the world, then pointing out that Tyrion is far more than he seems takes on greater importance.

Aemon also has interesting words for Jon: “You are half the age that Egg was, and your own burden is a crueler one, I fear. You will have little joy of your command, but I think you have the strength in you to do the things that must be done. Kill the boy, Jon Snow. Winter is almost upon us. Kill the boy and let the man be born.”

Aemon is obviously aware that the shit and the fan are meeting. Otherwise, there's no way being Lord Commander would be a crueler burden than the Kingship of Westeros. Then there is Moqorro's ADWD quote concerning Tyrion: "Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark. And you. A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of it all"

I think Aemon's words to Tyrion were clearly meant to convey his importance to the prophecy, and that Aemon has known events were coming to a head for quite a long time. Sorry if this is blatantly obvious, but I searched the forum and found nothing concerning this.

[jblair]

I should also point out that the Stark direwolves appear to have an innate and unexplainable (at least to Robb) dislike of Tyrion.

[Young Wolf's Vanguard]

I should also point out that the Stark direwolves appear to have an innate and unexplainable (at least to Robb) dislike of Tyrion.

I don't recall Ghost raging on Tyrion while he was with Jon and Benjen and later in Castle Black (though it has been a while since I read AGOT) - his brothers may have done that as a reflection of Robb's hostility towards Tyrion

Grey Wind doesn't like Spicers, nor Freys at Twins even though neither of Freys following Robb had any problems with him before the Crag

Shaggydog bit Little Walder during ACOK but that can be result of his fierce nature rather than a premonition (he bit Mikken and Luwin too)

so I guess it is nothing unusual in their hostility towards Tyrion

[The Last Reyne]

Aemon clearly knew things. When he hears the news about Dany he seems to go slightly mad ranting about how wrong they were, how they thought Aegon was the PWWP. He laments how wrong they were, what fools they were to believe they could read the signs.

[jblair]

It just makes me wonder if a dwarf (or a Lannister) appeared somewhere in the prophecy Aemon was privy to.

[Luna Plath]

I wonder if Maester Aemon's choice of words, "kill the boy and let me man be born," have any greater significance, especially when we consider that Jon is possibly killed at the end of ADWD.

[Budj]

He says "Kill the boy, Jon Snow"....maybe Jon "Snow" is the boy...the man is the Jon "insert name here" who knows where he comes from.

[Franz95]

The prophecy says that Azor Ahai will be "reborn" amidst salt and smoke. We don't know were Jon was born (assuming it's the Tower of Joy, I can see neither salt nor smoke down there) but if he is Azor Ahai the whole "kill the boy" thing makes sense, doesn't it? I really think Aemon knows something we don't.

[Lady of Long Lake]

I wonder if Maester Aemon's choice of words, "kill the boy and let me man be born," have any greater significance, especially when we consider that Jon is possibly killed at the end of ADWD.

After Ramsey's letter, Jon was saying those exact words to himself. I had forgotten it was Aemon that told Jon that- thanks for the reminder!

Besides Aemon's cryptic talk about Tyrion being a giant, I had found many weird things I'd underlined during Tyrion's stay at the Wall.

"And beyond a doubt the most useless", Tyrion talking about the largest structure built by the hands of men.

"Suddenly a strange madness took hold of him, a yearning to look once more off the end of the world. It would be his last chance, he thought, tomorrow he would ride south, and he could not imagine why he would ever want to return to this frozen desolation".

and then when he got up top, "West, he decided, for no special reason" and as fated, he runs into Jon. They chat and Jon turns to Tyrion, takes off his glove and calls him " Friend". Tyrion is touched and tells Jon there are many bastards in his kin but Jon is the first he can call a friend.

And preceding that scene, in Jon's POV, He could feel the great weight of all that ice pressing down on him, as if it were about to topple, and somehow Jon knew that if it fell, the world fell with it.

There are so many little trinkets in those first few Wall chapters! Things that I think may be foreshadowing future events. Neither Jon or Tyrion are the trusting type to reach out and call someone a friend. They connect like very few others do in the whole series. Tyrion is so adamant that he'll never be back that I think that means Mr. Martin has a surprise for him LOL! , and Aemon must have had some premonition too of Tyrion's future . And the line about bastards in his kin! All I can think is: A: They are related by blood ( oh good God, how?) or B: They are destined to be brothers- as in Brothers at the Wall.

I think it will be Tyrion and Jon at the Wall when the Others are defeated=)

[Last Eye of Bloodraven]

Aemon gave the same advice to Egg when he was crowned, so this particular quote doesn't bear special significance to the prophecy.

He say to Jon that Egg had a sweet nature, a innocence that they loved about him. So when Aemon was leaving for the Wall he told Egg to "kill the boy and let the man be born".

[Lady of Fire]

I don't think Aemon is a great prophesiser, but I do think he meant something more when speaking of Tyrion. Aemon probably didn't put Tyrion and the prophecy of tPtwP together, and in general Tyrion as such seems unlikely. But when he's dying in fever and has his epiphany, that's when it changes:

He spoke of dreams and never named the dreamer, of a glass candle that could not be lit and eggs that would not hatch. He said the sphinx was the riddle, not the riddler, whatever that meant. He asked Sam to read for him a book by Septon Barth, whose writing had been burned during the reign of Baelor the Blessed. Once he woke up weeping. "The dragon must have three heads," he wailed, "but I am too old and frail to be one of them. I should be with her, showing her the way, but my body has betrayed me."

Septon Barth was the Hand for Jaehaerys I and was author to one of the books that Tyrion was wanting to look at, the one whose only copy is at the Citadel (Dragons, Wyrms, and Wyverns: Their Unnatural History).

"No one ever looked for a girl," he said. "It was a prince that was promised, not a princess. Rhaegar, I thought...the smoke was from the fire that devoured Summerhall on the day of his birth, the salt from the tears shed for those who died. He shared my belief when he was young, but later he became persuaded that it was his own son who fulfilled the prophecy, for a comet had been seen above King's Landing on the night Aegon was conceived, and Rhaegar was certain the bleeding star had to be a comet. What fools we were, who thought ourselves so wise! The error crept in from the translation. Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and the other, as changeable as flame. The language misled us all for a thousand years. Daenerys is the one, born amidst salt and smoke. The dragons prove it."

Here, Aemon says that he allowed Rhaegar to believe that Aegon was tPtwP because the "born amidst salt and smoke" could have been the smoke of the Summerhall fires that preceded Rhaegar's birth and the salt the tears for those who had died. What why would that mean that Dany is tPtwP? The dragons prove something, but they don't relate to "salt and smoke". There's salt for Dragonstone, but where's the smoke? Thrice the prophecy has been incomplete; Rhaegar/Summerhall, Aegon/Comet, Dany/Dragons.

"No," the old man said. "It must be you. Tell them. The prophecy...my brother's dream...Lady Melisandre has misread the signs. Stannis...Stannis has some of the dragon blood in him, yes. His brothers did as well. Rhaelle, Egg's little girl, she was how they came by it...their father's mother...she used to call me Uncle Maester when she was a little girl. I remembered that, so I allowed myself to hope...perhaps I wanted to...we all deceive ourselves, when we want to believe. Melisandre most of all, I think. The sword is wrong, she has to know that...light without heat...an empty glamor...the sword is wrong, and the false light can only lead us deeper into darkness, Sam. Daenerys is our hope. Tell them that, at the Citadel. Make them listen.

Aemon dismisses Melisandre's assumption that Stannis is Azor Ahai based upon the false light of Lightbringer, The likeliness that Sam is going to remember to say everything Aemon wants him to at the right time when he arrives at the Citadel seems slim. Marwyn is telling Sam to go back to the Wall, Sam still has to make sure Gilly gets on her way, and then there's that instance with Jaqen/Pate... Sam gets overwhelmed easily, and will probably remember something important at the last, crucial moment.

Tyrion, if he's ever able to get back to a library, is the only one other than Marwyn or Sam who is researching dragons. Aemon's statement in GoT could just be GRRM's out foreshadowing of Tyrion's journey in aDwD. Nevertheless, Aemon seems to be the last one who knew of both the woods witch prophecy and Rhaegar's dream personally, and so whatever smaller, vital bits of information that were left died with him. If Tyrion and Sam can team up, they can probably help put the pieces of the prophecy together.

[jblair]

A couple of interesting things. Aemon obviously had contact with Rhaegar over the years, and they presumably mused over the prophecy/dreams together. I didn't mean that Aemon was necessarily prophetic himself (although he shares the Targeryen trait of having dragon-dreams), merely that he had access (plus Maester training) to parts of the prophecy and Targeryen lore that we are not privy to yet. And Aemon also seems to imply that being one of the heads of the dragon is a function of role as much as blood, since he takes himself out of the equation due to age and infirmity. So potentially anyone with some of the blood could take on the role under the right circumstances?

That also reminds me of another interesting aspect - Alleras/Sarella is called the Sphinx. She is a woman acting like a man. Aemon says that the Sphinx is the riddle. Aemon says that "dragons are neither male nor female...but now one and the other, as changeable as flame." And as a probably-unrelated aside, Sarella's mama is apparently a ship-captain too (see AFFC appendix).

So there we go, Tyrion and Sarella are obviously two heads of the dragon.

:P

edited for stupidity.

[Bushido]

While I think that Moqorro's visions are important,Aemon's opinion is of insightful and prophecy non related nature,he spotted a decent guy who is prejudiced because of Tyrion's appearance.

I just love the way GRRM links all the cool guys :D

[Uncat]

I don't think Aemon is a great prophesiser, but I do think he meant something more when speaking of Tyrion. Aemon probably didn't put Tyrion and the prophecy of tPtwP together, and in general Tyrion as such seems unlikely. But when he's dying in fever and has his epiphany, that's when it changes:

He spoke of dreams and never named the dreamer, of a glass candle that could not be lit and eggs that would not hatch. He said the sphinx was the riddle, not the riddler, whatever that meant. He asked Sam to read for him a book by Septon Barth, whose writing had been burned during the reign of Baelor the Blessed. Once he woke up weeping. "The dragon must have three heads," he wailed, "but I am too old and frail to be one of them. I should be with her, showing her the way, but my body has betrayed me."

Septon Barth was the Hand for Jaehaerys I and was author to one of the books that Tyrion was wanting to look at, the one whose only copy is at the Citadel (Dragons, Wyrms, and Wyverns: Their Unnatural History).

"No one ever looked for a girl," he said. "It was a prince that was promised, not a princess. Rhaegar, I thought...the smoke was from the fire that devoured Summerhall on the day of his birth, the salt from the tears shed for those who died. He shared my belief when he was young, but later he became persuaded that it was his own son who fulfilled the prophecy, for a comet had been seen above King's Landing on the night Aegon was conceived, and Rhaegar was certain the bleeding star had to be a comet. What fools we were, who thought ourselves so wise! The error crept in from the translation. Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and the other, as changeable as flame. The language misled us all for a thousand years. Daenerys is the one, born amidst salt and smoke. The dragons prove it."

Here, Aemon says that he allowed Rhaegar to believe that Aegon was tPtwP because the "born amidst salt and smoke" could have been the smoke of the Summerhall fires that preceded Rhaegar's birth and the salt the tears for those who had died. What why would that mean that Dany is tPtwP? The dragons prove something, but they don't relate to "salt and smoke". There's salt for Dragonstone, but where's the smoke? Thrice the prophecy has been incomplete; Rhaegar/Summerhall, Aegon/Comet, Dany/Dragons.

"No," the old man said. "It must be you. Tell them. The prophecy...my brother's dream...Lady Melisandre has misread the signs. Stannis...Stannis has some of the dragon blood in him, yes. His brothers did as well. Rhaelle, Egg's little girl, she was how they came by it...their father's mother...she used to call me Uncle Maester when she was a little girl. I remembered that, so I allowed myself to hope...perhaps I wanted to...we all deceive ourselves, when we want to believe. Melisandre most of all, I think. The sword is wrong, she has to know that...light without heat...an empty glamor...the sword is wrong, and the false light can only lead us deeper into darkness, Sam. Daenerys is our hope. Tell them that, at the Citadel. Make them listen.

Aemon dismisses Melisandre's assumption that Stannis is Azor Ahai based upon the false light of Lightbringer, The likeliness that Sam is going to remember to say everything Aemon wants him to at the right time when he arrives at the Citadel seems slim. Marwyn is telling Sam to go back to the Wall, Sam still has to make sure Gilly gets on her way, and then there's that instance with Jaqen/Pate... Sam gets overwhelmed easily, and will probably remember something important at the last, crucial moment.

Tyrion, if he's ever able to get back to a library, is the only one other than Marwyn or Sam who is researching dragons. Aemon's statement in GoT could just be GRRM's out foreshadowing of Tyrion's journey in aDwD. Nevertheless, Aemon seems to be the last one who knew of both the woods witch prophecy and Rhaegar's dream personally, and so whatever smaller, vital bits of information that were left died with him. If Tyrion and Sam can team up, they can probably help put the pieces of the prophecy together.

Thanks for all those quotes. I've been convinced, that Aemon was the link between Egg and Summerhall and Rheagars tragedy all allong, but I'm only on my second read in the beginnings os AFFC and had a hard time arguing it.

Another interessting thing about Aemon and his prescence at the wall: While he and the others cross for Braavos, he tells Sam, about his goodbyes with Egg long ago: Egg wanted him to stay as advisor, but Aemon declined it and explains to Sam, that he knew, that there at the Wall was the place he had to be. It was important for him to go there. And the interesting thing is, that when Egg let him go, he gave him "a guard of honor" of new recruits. Among them was Bloodraven. Aemon is old enough and obsessed with the PTWP enout, to be the link to him and his raise to LC, too.

[Dimadick]

He said the sphinx was the riddle, not the riddler, whatever that meant.

The sphinx is a recurring theme in Valyrian artwork and Valyrian-influenced works such as the sphinxes of the Red Keep. Perhaps we have yet to listed to the reasons for the cultural significance.

"a comet had been seen above King's Landing on the night Aegon was conceived, and Rhaegar was certain the bleeding star had to be a comet.

A red comet in 298, a red comet in 281/282. Coincidence or a periodic comet? One visible every 18 years or so.

[The Dornishman's Wife]

A red comet in 298, a red comet in 281/282. Coincidence or a periodic comet? One visible every 18 years or so.

18 years is not so much, people would know about it, especially and through the maester's network and you'd think people would take "King Joffrey's Comet" (Dany's comet / Stannis's comet / ...) a lot less seriously. In any case, the behaviour of the "comet" actually seems not at all like a comet but a supernova, appearing suddenly and fading slowly.

[Bushido]

Comet is comet,it means dragons. For all we know,Asshai could be hatching the eggs