R+L=J v. 26

[nordas]

i hate this theory...and i hate rhaegar. he's such an overrated character. I admit he was a charmer, and he would probably become a better king, than his father - however this is not a difficult task...I think jon is ned's son, and maybe a noble woman"s son....

[Dragonfish]

i hate this theory...and i hate rhaegar. he's such an overrated character. I admit he was a charmer, and he would probably become a better king, than his father - however this is not a difficult task...I think jon is ned's son, and maybe a noble woman"s son....

Ok, then answer these questions:

1) Why is Ned so tight-lipped about Jon's mother's identity? And if his mother is a noblewoman, then why would Ned lie to Robert and tell her it was a commoner? Note that lying to your king is treason, so Ned better have a darn good reason to lie.

2) What were Ned's promises to Lyanna, and what price did he pay to keep them?

3) Why does Ned think to himself that he's been "living lies" for fourteen years?

4) Why, when prompted to list all his children in his own mind, does Ned not include Jon? And don't say he was listing all his trueborn children; that interpretation doesn't work if you look at the context.

[nordas]

ok, but jon is not like a targaryen...when i read jon's chapters, i feel its ned stark 2.0.

And even if jon is r+l son, i dont think he will become a king, he refused stannis's offer to become lord of winterfell...

I hope Jon (and Stannis, and Dany) will fight the others. The Starks are honourable men, and they are not really good politicians...

But honestly i hope Howland Reed is going to be a POV character, and he will tell the truth about Jon's identity.

[Dragonfish]

ok, but jon is not like a targaryen...when i read jon's chapters, i feel its ned stark 2.0.

Well, Jon has somewhat of a melancholic personality, which was one of Rhaegar's major traits. But leaving that aside, why would the fact that Jon's personality resembles Ned's mean that he's Ned's biological son? The similarities could just as easily be explained by the fact that Jon was raised by Ned.

[nordas]

Well, Jon has somewhat of a melancholic personality, which was one of Rhaegar's major traits. But leaving that aside, why would the fact that Jon's personality resembles Ned's mean that he's Ned's biological son? The similarities could just as easily be explained by the fact that Jon was raised by Ned.

I agree, and i said i hate the theory ( but i didn't say that its a wrong theory)

Maybe Jon is really R+L'son..I dislike this theory, but my real problem is that some people say, Jon is going to rule westeros. I doubt Jon will become a king. We all know that asoiaf is not a fairy tale

[ThinPaperWings]

I agree, and i said i hate the theory ( but i didn't say that its a wrong theory)

Maybe Jon is really R+L'son..I dislike this theory, but my real problem is that some people say, Jon is going to rule westeros. I doubt Jon will become a king. We all know that asoiaf is not a fairy tale

If Martin is Martin there is no way he will be king. I think a heroic, tragic death is in order.

[nothatso]

I just want to point out that there is an island covered in weirwoods conveniently placed near the location that Rhaegar and Lyanna met. There may be a reason for that, like to provide a location for Rhaegar and Lyanna to elope or conceive a child where Bran or Bloodraven could see. I'm not sure of the extent to which this has been discussed before.

I agree, and i said i hate the theory ( but i didn't say that its a wrong theory)

Maybe Jon is really R+L'son..I dislike this theory, but my real problem is that some people say, Jon is going to rule westeros. I doubt Jon will become a king. We all know that asoiaf is not a fairy tale

I think people grossly overestimate Martin's propensity to "stick it" to fantasy tropes. He already killed off one PoV hero (Ned), but that doesn't mean he'll kill ALL of them, or give ALL of them a sad end. We know a bittersweet ending is to come, but that doesn't necessarily mean all characters that appear to be morally good will die. When he explained his problem with the character of Aragorn from LotR, it wasn't that he was good, or that he was king, or that he didn't die within the timeframe of the books. His problem with Aragorn was that he wasn't shown learning or making mistakes, nothing more.

If Martin is Martin there is no way he will be king. I think a heroic, tragic death is in order.

I certainly think this is possible and even plausible, but since what happened to him in ADWD I have a hard time thinking Martin would bring him back just to kill him one book later. This is getting a bit off-topic, however.

[Wraithpk]

How long ago Blackfyre fled Westeros? I mean would it be possible to keep the line so pure for this boy to have silver-blond hair and purple eyes?

The Blackfyre rebellion was only about 90 years before the books, so it's very plausible.

[nothatso]

How long ago Blackfyre fled Westeros? I mean would it be possible to keep the line so pure for this boy to have silver-blond hair and purple eyes?

There are actually people with "Targaryen" or "Valyrian" features throughout the Free Cities. It's said that the "pleasure houses" of Lys are full of women with silver hair and violet eyes. Illyrio's wife has these features. The features themself are not as uncommon in the Free Cities as they seem in Westeros, probably due to a closer proximity to Valyria itself. As far as the Blackfyre line in particular, the last attempt they made at the Iron Throne was 40 years prior to the books when Maelys the Monstrous was gathering forces in the stepstones. Barristan took part in this war. It is alleged that the male Blackfyres were all killed, but who knows how accurate that is or if the females lived on.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

Well, Jon has somewhat of a melancholic personality, which was one of Rhaegar's major traits. But leaving that aside, why would the fact that Jon's personality resembles Ned's mean that he's Ned's biological son? The similarities could just as easily be explained by the fact that Jon was raised by Ned.

And can also be explained by the fact that Jon is still a Stark if R+L=J. Jon is described (as is Arya) to have more North in him than any of the other children, and as posted on these threads before Arya is said to resemble Lyanna. :)

[Shaggy Rickon]

Rhaegar died before Jon was born, so he could never have felt that relief. Also, many babies have very little hair, and many children's hair color changes in their first few years. Case in point: I was born blond, but my hair has darkened to a dark brown since, while my sister was born with black hair and is a dark blonde herself now.

I think that's at least part of the Ashara Dayne rumours, actually. Ned certainly couldn't risk on having silver hair without having an explanation for that. So he planted the Ashara roumor; since there are silver-haired Daynes, he could simply have pointed to her as explanation.

Ashara had black hair. Barristan remembers it in ADWD. She also had violet eyes. The eyes were the reason for ned's ashara story. In case jon had targaryen eyes.

[Lady Octarina]

Ashara had black hair. Barristan remembers it in ADWD. She also had violet eyes. The eyes were the reason for ned's ashara story. In case jon had targaryen eyes.

I do think the hair was part of his reason to let the rumors continue; she might not have silver-blond hair, but her brother Arthur had, didn't he? So, in the unlikely event Jon had that hair as well, it would still be an acceptable excuse.

[ThinPaperWings]

I certainly think this is possible and even plausible, but since what happened to him in ADWD I have a hard time thinking Martin would bring him back just to kill him one book later. This is getting a bit off-topic, however.

It is getting off slightly off topic. But for anyone who thinks R+L=J somehow makes things too fairytale, it's worth pointing out that a tragic death for Jon screws with tropes sufficiently. And If Jon dies for good, I'd see it as being in the final book, not immediately after whatever kind of resurrection/resuscitation is coming.

I just want to point out that there is an island covered in weirwoods conveniently placed near the location that Rhaegar and Lyanna met. There may be a reason for that, like to provide a location for Rhaegar and Lyanna to elope or conceive a child where Bran or Bloodraven could see. I'm not sure of the extent to which this has been discussed before.

This is an interesting thought. I haven't seen too much discussion of how the weirwood network opens up all kinds of secrets to Bran (though there's been talk about the few events he witnesses in Winterfell's godswood.) I can almost see George killing Howland Reed before he says anything just to taunt the fans a bit, but then leaving Jon's parentage for Bran to reveal.

[Gurinder Brarstark]

Just finished the series, and I would like to point out that the wood witch told a previous Targ king that the prince that was promised would come of his line. Then during AwD Melisandre states that when she asks the lord of light to show her the prince that was promised she sees Jon Snow. This shows that Jon might be Rhagars son and the prince that was promised. But i have my doubts due to the fact that Jon shows none of the Targ features, even the great bastards had at least one or more Targ features.

[Shaggy Rickon]

Just finished the series, and I would like to point out that the wood witch told a previous Targ king that the prince that was promised would come of his line. Then during AwD Melisandre states that when she asks the lord of light to show her the prince that was promised she sees Jon Snow. This shows that Jon might be Rhagars son and the prince that was promised. But i have my doubts due to the fact that Jon shows none of the Targ features, even the great bastards had at least one or more Targ features.

Apparently rhaegar's seed was not strong and lyanna's was. ;-p

[nothatso]

Just finished the series, and I would like to point out that the wood witch told a previous Targ king that the prince that was promised would come of his line. Then during AwD Melisandre states that when she asks the lord of light to show her the prince that was promised she sees Jon Snow. This shows that Jon might be Rhagars son and the prince that was promised. But i have my doubts due to the fact that Jon shows none of the Targ features, even the great bastards had at least one or more Targ features.

According to Martin, Rhaenys Targaryen, Rhaegar's daughter with Elia Martell, had the dark hair and dark eyes of her mother(I believe). This was quoted in an interview, but is not found in the text. It can be found here. (when the site is working properly)

[sagaz]

Just finished the series, and I would like to point out that the wood witch told a previous Targ king that the prince that was promised would come of his line. Then during AwD Melisandre states that when she asks the lord of light to show her the prince that was promised she sees Jon Snow. This shows that Jon might be Rhagars son and the prince that was promised. But i have my doubts due to the fact that Jon shows none of the Targ features, even the great bastards had at least one or more Targ features.

this was discussed in the previous version of this thread (and many times more). mixed Targaryens had other features, Rhaegar's daughter take up after her mother.

[facetree]

I think some of the stuff should be pinned as a "targaryen characteristics" thread.

-Targaryens can't be burned->untrue

-All Targaryens have silver hair and/or purple eyes->untrue

What else...

[Jem]

I think some of the stuff should be pinned as a "targaryen characteristics" thread.

-Targaryens can't be burned->untrue

-All Targaryens have silver hair and/or purple eyes->untrue

What else...

Targs never get sick > untrue

[Dragonfish]

I think some of the stuff should be pinned as a "targaryen characteristics" thread.

-Targaryens can't be burned->untrue

-All Targaryens have silver hair and/or purple eyes->untrue

What else...

I started just such a thread (though it was more focused on debunking common objections to R+L=J), but it was merged with one of the R+L=J threads here, in post #191.