The Tad Williams Thread

[williamjm]

Memory, Sorrow and Thorn does some things very well - the Sithi, his version of elves, are one of the better attempts I've seen at portraying a race with a non-human mindset, he manages to create a very effective atmosphere, his evil characters are concincingly evil without being too cliched and some parts of the plot are quite interesting. However, it has some major weaknesses as well, principally the slow pace, excessively padded plot, unnecessary (and uninteresting) subplots and an unfortunately saccharine ending. At its best it is compelling. At its worst it is frankly tedious.

Otherland isn't dull as often, but it does have an excessive number of pointless subplots. Often the subplots are reasonably entertaining but in the middle books of the series many hundreds of pages go past without anything of any relevance to the main plot actually happening. It is a reasonably good series, but much longer than it needed to be.

War Of The Flowers is probably his most consistent work (that I've read). Being only a single volume there isn't nearly as much padding as in his other series. It was quite entertaining, not a brilliant book, but possibly a good choice for the first book to read.

[Ser_Denys]

I am in the minority as I like Otherland better than Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn. Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn definitely has some similarities with ASoIaF, but Martin pulls off the medieval feel so much better that it should be mentioned on the other thread out there (Spoiled on GRRM). Otherland is way better than anything similar on the market - very fun to read.

[Brendan Moody]

I too liked Otherland more than MS+T, though both were very good; lots of detail, yes, but most of it interesting and well-described. War of the Flowers was sort of derivative but well worth reading as well, and Tailchaser's Song is slight but entertaining. I own Shadowmarch but am having trouble getting into it, and Caliban's Hour made me want to throw things.

[Snuffaluffalee]

I *still* haven't managed to finish either the Otherland series or MST-- I just didn't enjoy them overmuch. I think I'm in the third book of each series... somewhere in the middle of each when I put them down, so I'll get back to them eventually for the sake of finishing them. Or not. There are other things I'd rather be reading.

With all that said, I pretty much agree with the opinions above-- the pacing is slow and some of the plots were unnecessary and dull. But I'll give props for the Otherland series-- I thought it was an original idea and even borderline enjoyable at times.

[Ser Illin' Pain]

I loved everything except for War of the Flowers. What a bunch of tripe that was. I also haven't started his new fantasy series yet.

[caladanbrood]

I have only read Otherland and War of the Flowers, and while I enjoyed them, Otherland was just too damn long-winded, and War of the Flowers a tad too childish (pun unintended ). Have herad a lot of praise for MS&T and Shadowmarch though...

[Vestrit]

I've only read Otherland and a short story based in that world in Legends II.

Fantastic idea, some good characters and clearly tonnes of research.

But it really only needed to be two books. Four books was packed to the rafters with irrelevant fillers. It felt at times like he had done so much research that he was determined to get it all in, when he could have cut it back by a lot. As others have said, it dragged a lot and at times it felt like a travelogue of the world he had created rather than a story.

It's kind of what has put me off picking up MST or anything else by him.

I thought the short story in L2 was lovely though.

[Winterfella]

Loved Otherland. I'll agree it's slightly bloated, but worth it.

Only got a hundred pages into Dragonbone Chair, but I'll probably pick it up again someday. Others have said it picks up after that.

Couldn't get into War of the Flowers, and probably won't ever pick it up again.

Ser Illin', that's a great avatar. Now I'm jealous.

[Rhaco]

I've only read the first of the BOURNE books

Do yourself a favor and stop right there, direwolf. Supremacy is readable but only barely, and Ultimatum is awful.

Read Williams, yes. MS&T is great. Otherland and War of the Flowers, not so much, but only because they're just not my thing. The Shadowmarch series is looking decent so far.

[Urri]

I like most of Tad Williams work (though I think the plot in War of the Flowers was a bit to obvious) and M,S & T is IMO still one of the best pieces of fantasy around, mainly because he managed to create a very "deep" world and extremly believable immortals.

That's why I was really shocked and dissapointed when the same Ted Williams produced something like the first "Shadowmarch" volumn: An extremly boring world, characters that are pure stereotypes and acting unbeliebable stupid, and giving away the two plot twists that might have made the book interesting by two completly spoilerish and obvious prophecies almost at the start of the book. Somehow the book felt as if T.W. wanted to proof that once you have a name you can sell anything in fantasy

[Ser Illin' Pain]

I never thought about Otherland being long-winded. It always seemed to have an extremely fast pace to me. I remember not being able to put it down.

One thing Williams' tales seem to have in common is the ultra-cheesy happy ending. No "bittersweet" there. Think of the most wonderful, glorious situation that the good guys can end up in and you've accurately predicted the ending... but at least its a hell of a ride getting there.

Sorry to make you jealous, Winterfella. I have your avatar in other boards, so I figured a little Photoshop work was in order here.

[Bastmosis]

Loved MS&T myself - didn't find that it dragged myself, although some people do.

Oh, and can I add that the Mars trilogy can get really painful at times unless you are sold on green/left politics. If you were to cut all of the whining out the series would telescope down to one very good book.

[Ser Illin' Pain]

Oh, and can I add that the Mars trilogy can get really painful at times unless you are sold on green/left politics. If you were to cut all of the whining out the series would telescope down to one very good book.

Are you referring to Kim Stanley Robinson's? If so, I agree. I wasn't aware Tad Williams wrote a Mars trilogy :/

Ben Bova does this too, but I love his space operas. I'm willing to give it a pass when Sci Fi authors use the post-apocalyptic greenhouse Earth stuff considering it is Science FICTION. The whole point is to surmise what could happen, whether its real or not.

[Jakob Lightbringer]

I can heartily reccomend MSaT. It bears many ressemblances to aSoIaF, besides the typical fantsy-genre stuff.

Probably because the political intrigue in both books are more or less geared toward mimicing some of the more interesting episodes of medieval history.

However, be warned that MSaT is not nearly as thick with political intrigue. Though it does exist in plenty, it is not the primary focus of the series, as it seems to be with aSoIaF. MSaT is more focused on the adventures of young Simon Snowlock and the various prophecies and/or lore assciated with the supernatural villain, the Storm King. For that reason, I would lump MSaT in with what I would call "Coming of Age" fantasy, in which a young teenager finds himself involved in a global crisis and takes on a pivotal role in resolving it... in the process becoming an adult.

The many of the characters (Camaris/Baristan Selmy, Binibik/Syrio Forel, etc) and families (Benegaris/Lannister) bear such a striking resemblance, both in characteristics and plot elements, that the influence is unmistakable.

A definate must-read for any GRRM fan, if only to be familiar with the influencing art.

[Olaf]

Shadowmarch has more political intrigue and court politics than MS&T.

But so far, only the first book is out in that trilogy.

[Lord Stormbringer]

Tad Williams has a fair amount of talent. Unfortunately in any of his novel length works his strength are quickly overwhelmed by his weaknesses. His character ocassionaly just become unforgivably retarded and scizophrenic, his attempts at atmosphere get to be grating (they start good and get to be too detailed), and he wastes a lot of time.

I would not recommend his novels, I've run across a couple of short stories and they're good. But the books aren't worth it and are in my opinion one of the weakest fantasy series I've read.

[Teleute]

I prefer Otherland to MS&T as well. The atmosphere of MS&T is oppressive--there's this sense of doom all the way up to the abruptly happy ending where everything falls into place. It didn't help that I didn't find Simon and Miriamele particularly inspiring characters. The main reason I finished the series was because I'd already bought all four books.

Otherland had more life and colour in it... and I guess I might be more lenient in judging it because it introduced me indirectly to Snow Crash (I read a review of Otherland which said 'Read Snow Crash instead', so I did, and now I have Cryptonomicon on my to read pile just waiting for me to finish exams)

[Lord Stormbringer]

The many of the characters (Camaris/Baristan Selmy, Binibik/Syrio Forel, etc) and families (Benegaris/Lannister) bear such a striking resemblance, both in characteristics and plot elements, that the influence is unmistakable.

A definate must-read for any GRRM fan, if only to be familiar with the influencing art.

I wish there was a vomit smiley.

Any similarity between MS&T is purely at the most general and removed origins. They are the same basic fantasy archetypes and draw on similar bits of history, I dare say that in many very significant ways they're different. I think you're giving Williams too much credit and Martin not nearly enough.

And Camaris and Selmy are both faithful, virtous knights that have been soiled by life. A very common fantasy archetype, they date from Arthurian legends at least.

And Bibinik/Syrio? Whaaaa? I don't see it beyond both being physically competent. Bibnik is if anything a bad D&D cliche come wandering in.

[Olaf]

MS&T was written as a commentary on the LORD OF THE RINGS.

[PhelanArcetus]

I've only read Otherland. It was very interesting, though confusing at the end, and the books did drag on rather slowly. Not just the pace of the story, but the fact that I seemed to get through less pages per day with Otherland than with most other books.

Not knowing which subgenres you want to read, or having more experience with Williams to pick out similar things, I can't really give suggestions, but I'll toss out some things that I've been impressed with.

(historical fiction) The Last King by Michael Curtis Ford (have not liked his other books nearly as much, though)

Assassin's Apprentice by Robin Hobb (mentioned all the time around here... I'd love to read the rest of the trilogy but the damn store didn't have book 2)

The Lions of Al-Rassan by Guy Gavriel Kay (utterly spectacular in emotional power, and I will be getting my claws on some more of his books)

The Coming of Conan The Cimmerian by Robert E. Howard (these are the real Conan stories by Howard... very vibrant though fairly simple)

Those are just the things I've read fairly recently that popped to the top of my head.