It's really B + L = J: Let's discuss

[Winter Wasnt That Bad]

I know that R + L = J is a foregone conclusion for many on this site. And I have to admit, it is very compelling, has a lot of logic to it, explains a few things that went down in the Stark family, and is such a cool thought in general that people have latched onto this idea like a deer tick on a New Englander.

Buttttt, hold on! This theory has one small flaw in it. It is wrong.

What is my logic, you ask? Namely, that R + L got the wrong fella in the equation. It is really B, as in Benjen. Yes, that one. Here's my argument for B instead of R:

1. Benjen is mysteriously sent to the Wall during Robert's Rebellion, or possibly soon after it is over. No explanation is really made for the reasons.

2. Benjen and his sister Lyanna are pretty close, according to what has been written about those two. There isn't a lot of info, but what is written about them is that they enjoyed being with each other.

3. Hey, if the Targs can do it, and the Lannisters can do it, what's so terribly shocking that the Starks may try the same thing? This may explain Lyanna's death. Are we really told who kills her in the books? I don't really know, but I don't remember. Maybe Eddard did, for his family's name. Most of the Starks would have freaked out if this were true.

4. Benjen seems to be very close to Jon. On his one visit to Winterfell, he makes it a point to spend time with Jon. And he is the one to plant the seed for Jon to join the Night's Watch. Perhaps to be closer to his son?

5. This is the promise Eddard made to his sister. Don't make this known! She may be ashamed about the affair, or possibly afraid Jon would come to harm.

OK, this is my argument. Let's discuss this. Who wants to argue for or against this idea? I'd like to hear what my forum brethren and sistren have to add.

[hombay]

My only argument against your theory is that I doubt GRRM would play the same trick twice several times. Targs did it, J + C did it, and now more people? It would seem unrealistic if so many were into incest, if you ask me.

However, Benjen being Jon's father certainly adds to those few scenes they had together in retrospect.

[MyLifeIsNotSoPrecious]

But how does Lyanna end up at the Tower of Joy with the Kingsguard guarding her?

[Know Face Man]

1. Benjen is mysteriously sent to the Wall during Robert's Rebellion, or possibly soon after it is over. No explanation is really made for the reasons.

Answer to that is 3rd sons often go to the Nights Watch, as they are not the heir.

[Dragonfish]

This theory is virtually impossible. Jon was conceived a few months into the war, during which time Lyanna was separated from her entire family. Benjen could not have been able to sleep with Lyanna during this time.

[Winter Wasnt That Bad]

But how does Lyanna end up at the Tower of Joy with the Kingsguard guarding her?

Good question. We know Rhaegar did like Lyanna, plus he seems to be a pretty stand-up guy. Maybe he put her there once he knew she was pregnant, to protect her? Better for people to think it was him instead of her own brother.

[Winter's Knight]

My only argument against your theory is that I doubt GRRM would play the same trick twice several times. Targs did it, J + C did it, and now more people? It would seem unrealistic if so many were into incest, if you ask me.

However, Benjen being Jon's father certainly adds to those few scenes they had together in retrospect.

"I am not you son!"

"More's the pity.

[greygnarl]

Though intriguing, this theory has so much going against it. The one thing is that you now have to explain the Kingsguard guarding Lyanna.

You also have to check the timeline for when Benjen last saw Lyanna and when Jon was born.

[ARYa_Nym]

We don't know how much younger Benjen is than Lyanna but I'm guessing he was 2 or 3 years younger which should place him at 12/13 at the time Lyanna got pregnant. He wouldn't even be a good cover story since he was so young.

[Winter Wasnt That Bad]

This theory is virtually impossible. Jon was conceived a few months into the war, during which time Lyanna was separated from her entire family. Benjen could not have been able to sleep with Lyanna during this time.

Sure he could have. It only takes one night, you know. You're saying that Lyanna never visiter Winterfell even one day during that time, or that her own family was banned from visiting her?

I think it's possible for her to have gotten pregnant before the rebellion started.

[Olde_and_Tired]

No we are never told who kills Lyanna but the logical conclusion is that she died in child birth which is very common.

[Dragonfish]

Sure he could have. It only takes one night, you know. You're saying that Lyanna never visiter Winterfell even one day during that time, or that her own family was banned from visiting her?

Uh, no? The war was fought in part because she was in the hands of the Targaryens. It would have been a pretty big deal if she had managed to get back to Winterfell during this time.

I think it's possible for her to have gotten pregnant before the rebellion started.

Not with Jon, it isn't. We know he was a born a few months into the war, based on statements George has made about when he was born. This is not up for debate.

[greygnarl]

Can you picture Ned killing his sister and then heading home and packing his brother off to the Wall? This would add a whole new dimension to Ned's character.

[Lordtoofat2sitAthrone]

I know that R + L = J is a foregone conclusion for many on this site. And I have to admit, it is very compelling, has a lot of logic to it, explains a few things that went down in the Stark family, and is such a cool thought in general that people have latched onto this idea like a deer tick on a New Englander.

Buttttt, hold on! This theory has one small flaw in it. It is wrong.

What is my logic, you ask? Namely, that R + L got the wrong fella in the equation. It is really B, as in Benjen. Yes, that one. Here's my argument for B instead of R:

1. Benjen is mysteriously sent to the Wall during Robert's Rebellion, or possibly soon after it is over. No explanation is really made for the reasons.

2. Benjen and his sister Lyanna are pretty close, according to what has been written about those two. There isn't a lot of info, but what is written about them is that they enjoyed being with each other.

3. Hey, if the Targs can do it, and the Lannisters can do it, what's so terribly shocking that the Starks may try the same thing? This may explain Lyanna's death. Are we really told who kills her in the books? I don't really know, but I don't remember. Maybe Eddard did, for his family's name. Most of the Starks would have freaked out if this were true.

4. Benjen seems to be very close to Jon. On his one visit to Winterfell, he makes it a point to spend time with Jon. And he is the one to plant the seed for Jon to join the Night's Watch. Perhaps to be closer to his son?

5. This is the promise Eddard made to his sister. Don't make this known! She may be ashamed about the affair, or possibly afraid Jon would come to harm.

OK, this is my argument. Let's discuss this. Who wants to argue for or against this idea? I'd like to hear what my forum brethren and sistren have to add.

1. Something is there, I agree. It's a long stretch to think that he was sent away, presumably by Eddard, as a result of incest.

2. Like many brothers and sisters that don't have sex with each other.

3. What? No.

4. No closer than any other Uncle, really. Or any other member of the Starks, exempting Cat and to a lesser degree Sansa.

5. Here your only half wrong. The promise is to keep Jon a secret. But not because he's an incestous abomination. Because he is the heir to the throne and would be a target.

[The Hooded Man]

Interesting, but I doubt it. I think GRRM would not harm Ned's image after his death, since almost all of the readers worship him. Not impossible, but unlikely.

[Winter Wasnt That Bad]

Uh, no? The war was fought in part because she was in the hands of the Targaryens. It would have been a pretty big deal if she had managed to get back to Winterfell during this time.

Not with Jon, it isn't. We know he was a born a few months into the war, based on statements George has made about when he was born. This is not up for debate.

If he is born only a few months into the war then she was pregnant before it began, correct? That supports my argument that Benjen and her would have had plenty of occasions to do the deed.

Because if it's before the war, there is nothing unusual for Stark family members to visit her. During the war, yes, because she is the reason for the war, chiefly that Robert accuses Rhaegar of kidnapping her.

[JonTargStark]

Everything on this site, no matter how logical they sound, it really is only a speculation and guesses.

So, just because one sounds 'better' than another theory, it doesn't necessarily make one wrong and other right. But, I guess, biggest thing against your theory is that, there was little clues and hints and hidden signs pointing to the possible secret of Jon's birth for longer than a decade of this series, and from what I can make out from Martin's interviews, that it won't be insignificant discovery, not surprising that he has been building it up for more than ten years over five books.

Also, Jon is one of the main beloved characters, if your theory is right, it would make him a bastard AND the product of incest, AND it would be very insignificant revelation in terms of the story.

In some ways it may sound like it's possible, but it doesn't necessarily make it true, and I really don't think it is the case.

[Dragonfish]

If he is born only a few months into the war then she was pregnant before it began, correct? That supports my argument that Benjen and her would have had plenty of occasions to do the deed.

Because if it's before the war, there is nothing unusual for Stark family members to visit her. During the war, yes, because she is the reason for the war, chiefly that Robert accuses Rhaegar of kidnapping her.

I meant to say "conceived." Jon was conceived a few months into the war, which basically eliminates Benjen as a possible father.

[JonTargStark]

And, I'm not sure, in the history of fantasy literature, if there ever was a main character who was born a bastard, and the product of incest between brother and sister, regardless of it has been kept secret since, and I'm sure one thing is to be underdog character who had to suffer the pain of being born a bastard and overcome adversities thrown his way, and whole other thing is to be the bastard and the product of incest....

[Winter Wasnt That Bad]

1. Something is there, I agree. It's a long stretch to think that he was sent away, presumably by Eddard, as a result of incest.

2. Like many brothers and sisters that don't have sex with each other.

3. What? No.

4. No closer than any other Uncle, really. Or any other member of the Starks, exempting Cat and to a lesser degree Sansa.

5. Here your only half wrong. The promise is to keep Jon a secret. But not because he's an incestous abomination. Because he is the heir to the throne and would be a target.

I admit I don't really believe all of these points (especially Eddard killing his sis for honor's sake, and then adopting the kid as his own). I just think that there may be

vaguely something here that is an alternate explanation for: a) her death - maybe not Eddard but maybe someone else who was torqued off at the event. B) Eddard's vague and hazy promise to her c) Benjen being toted off conveniently to the wall.

The only Stark child Benjen spends any quality time with is Jon, by the way, if I recall correctly. There are no significant scenes of him talking to Arya, say, or Bran, but I could be mistaken. So one could argue that at least Jon could be Benjen's favorite.

Something to chew on. You won't read anything from me such as "this is the most obvious truth! How could any sane human being disagree with my theory!!" At least not with this theory. Maybe you could convince me that this is just "barking up the wrong tree".