Aegon and the mummer's dragon, a (hopefully) new argument

[Saltwater]

I know, but the couplets are people who were traveling together. "Kraken and dark flame" = Vicarion and Moqorro, "lion and griffin" = Tyrion and JonCon, "the sun's son and the mummer's dragon" = Quentyn and __________.

Well I guess that's how you pair them. You are right, they travel together. But you can pair them with their intentions as well. While Vic and Moquorro also could be both after her dragons and or being after her as well, Tyrion and Griff kind of both want to use her to go back to Westeros. And Quentin and Aegon want both to marry her.(with good intentions in a marryage, and not just like we take her cuz we want her dragons). I think it's more about their agenda.

[House Draper]

Well I guess that's how you pair them. You are right, they travel together. But you can pair them with their intentions as well. While Vic and Moquorro also could be both after her dragons and or being after her as well, Tyrion and Griff kind of both want to use her to go back to Westeros. And Quentin and Aegon want both to marry her.(with good intentions in a marryage, and not just like we take her cuz we want her dragons). I think it's more about their agenda.

I think that's a much less obvious pattern, so forgive me if I don't buy it. I'm not saying that Aegon isn't the mummer's dragon - I think he is the only person who fits that symbol as of now - I'm just hesitant to assert that he definitely is and that no other person will turn out to be the mummer's dragon in TWOW. As of right now, I'm 80% sure he is, but the pattern is giving me about 20% skepticism.

[Dragonfish]

You want to believe that she's getting two phrophecies about one person, because "mummers" always stamping something as fake is fine. You're fully free to have your own opinion about that.

You're conflating two things here. I do believe that the term "mummer's" implies fakeness, but that has nothing to do with my assertion that the two mentions of the mummer's dragon are referring to the same person. I feel like I've explained enough times why I hold this position, say I'd suggest you simply re-read my posts if you're still confused.

As I said before, a mummer's dragon as an cloth dragon on poles could also been used in a parade, carried around by cheering people to honor a "dragon"-queen coming home. It would still be called a mummers dragon, cuz it's name. Would you imply any kind of fakery in that because there is mummer involved?

If I though the prophecy depicted a literal mummer's dragon being paraded around, then I would agree there might not being any implication of fakery there. But I don't think it was a literal depiction; I think it was metaphorical description of a person, and when you describe a person as a "mummer's dragon," that has to imply fakeness, IMO.

Dany: Jorah, they were cheering me and parading wonderful dragons of cloth on poles.

Jorah: What is a cloth dragon my queen?

Dany: A mummers's dragon they use in their plays.

By your rule of mummer=always fake this is her people showing her secretly that they parade her becuase she is fake and no dragon after all and they all want to secretly assassinating her. Or maybe after all they just parade their "dragonqueen"?

Huh? My rule does not lead to this interpretation, because I don't believe the vision refers to Dany.

You never answerd to those things.

Answered to what things?

[valyrian_steel]

It's prolly been mentioned, what hasnt, but I think the last part is the key here.

“A cloth dragon on poles,” Dany explained. “Mummers use them in their follies, to give the heroes something to fight.”

Who is the Mummer's Dragon...Aegon

Who is the Mummer...Varys

Who r the heroes...The King and Lords of Westeros.

Aegon is merely another ploy by Varys to this greater good for the realm he's always going on about. He's just a distraction to keep their eyes off what Varys intends. The fact that these events r Mummer's follies indicates they arnt really important events in the greater scheme of things. Im not entirely sure Varys and Illyrio (the perfumed senechal) r playing the same game. The only thing important to the realm is stopping the others (or not)

[Saltwater]

I think that's a much less obvious pattern, so forgive me if I don't buy it. I'm not saying that Aegon isn't the mummer's dragon - I think he is the only person who fits that symbol as of now - I'm just hesitant to assert that he definitely is and that no other person will turn out to be the mummer's dragon in TWOW. As of right now, I'm 80% sure he is, but the pattern is giving me about 20% skepticism.

Yes, of corse, it could be someone else in the end^^ you never know until you know. Could also be that the pairing is not really possible to figure out for now, since there are two drop outs of it, if you take the mummers dragon for Aegon, or one just counting Griff. And honesty, I'm not sure I trust Quaithe at all. She pretty much warns her about everyone that is somehow coming. And not the harpy, unless it would be the senechal.

[Dragonguard]

This is purely a question: Would it be unheard of for a facsimile of a dragon to be raised? Is this cloth dragon she sees actually 3-d? We don't really have any description other than that it is a cloth dragon on poles. She's seen mummer's dragons, but she hasn't seen Westerosi style banners. Is it possible that she wouldn't realize the difference, and her mind rationalizes it as a "mummer's dragon"? Since this is a vision and she isn't spoonfed everything, is it possible that the vision may not have been so specific that the 3-headed dragon would be used, but a dragon? I don't know myself, I'm just saying that I question this a bit given that we're relying on her POV and the detail and what the images actually show.

Just a side note to the discussion. We, the readers, are the ones using "mummer" and "fake" interchangeably. Really, mummery is about "masking" something, not that it must be fake. Mummery is a presentation of something-- a "representation"-- which does not essentially need to be "fake." So, I think instead of "fake" we should be thinking of "mummer's dragon" as "disguised dragon." If Aegon is a Blackfyre posing as a Targaryen, then he is a "disguised" dragon, so I think "mummer's dragon" and "Aegon Blackfyre" can still work even if the terminology is Dany's misunderstanding.

You mean in a Westerosi battle? I've certainly never heard of it.

It don't see how it could be anything but 3D. "Cloth dragon" means that it's a dragon made of cloth. I would never use the term "cloth dragon" to refer a dragon painted onto cloth, anymore than I would call a dragon painted onto a regular piece of canvas a "canvas dragon." The term itself implies that it's 3D.

Don't know, but I'm sure Dany would at least recognize her own family's sigil.

If 'mummer's dragon' can be used to mean 'disguised dragon' rather than 'fake' (and i think its a good point) then Aegon could still be a real Targaryen not a Blackfyre because he IS disguised (- his hair is BLUE lol) to hide and protect him from his enemies until he is ready to reveal himself

As to the banners not being able to be a 'cloth dragon on poles' i thought war banners were house sigils made of cloth sewn onto cloth or silk and raised on poles...so a banner COULD be a cloth dragon (if it actually IS or not we'll have to see)

Either way i hope Aegon is real and is successful ((again if he will be... :dunno: ) unless he goes mad lol)

[Dragonfish]

As to the banners not being able to be a 'cloth dragon on poles' i thought war banners were house sigils made of cloth sewn onto cloth or silk and raised on poles...so a banner COULD be a cloth dragon (if it actually IS or not we'll have to see)

No, it can't. A cloth dragon is a dragon made of cloth, not a dragon painted on a piece of cloth.

[Dragonguard]

No, it can't. A cloth dragon is a dragon made of cloth, not a dragon painted on a piece of cloth.

My previous statement was 'war banners were house sigils made of CLOTH SEWN ONTO CLOTH or silk and raised on poles' the whole war banner is cloth or silk, the symbol isnt painted on, the symbol would be sewn or woven into the surrounding colours so on a Targaryen standard it would be a silk or cloth dragon on a silk or cloth background (im not saying thats what Dany SAW im saying its possible because thats what a banner IS) :) Here's some examples these dont look painted to me (but if you can find a description in the book where it says painted i'll concede the point?)

[Dragonfish]

I'll concede that the banners you're referring to are probably made of cloth sewn onto cloth, rather than painted cloth (the latter scenario was based purely on my own layman's understanding of banners and sigils). However, I still don't think that banners that depict dragons can be described as cloth dragons, even if the image of the dragon is itself made of cloth. To me, the term "cloth dragon" denotes cloth arranged in the shape of a dragon, not just a two-dimensional image.

[DreamSongs]

Haven't had a chance to read the whole thread...but what if the mummer's dragon is Lannister power (Joff, then Tommen on the throne)?

ETA: The cheering crowd are those who support/accept Lannister power despite Stannis' accusations against Cersei and Jaime. HOTU showed the Red Wedding, why not the truth of the current occupants of the IT?

[Dragonfish]

Why would a dragon represent Lannister power? And why would Quaithe tell Dany that the mummer's dragon is coming to Dany, under your interpretation?

[DreamSongs]

Robert Baratheon is known to Dany as the Usurper. Robert is dead and neither Joffrey or Tommen are his sons. They are bastard Lannisters that sit the throne under the House Baratheon. Despite Stannis' letter, people continue to cow to the Lannisters at the point Dany has her visit to HOTU. The Lannisters have the base of power. They only begin to lose it with Joff's bad decisions.

ETA: The mummer's dragon shows that a false king sits the IT.

[Dragonfish]

Seems like a really big stretch to me. Especially considering Quaithe's statement that the mummer's dragon was coming to Dany.

[DreamSongs]

Tyrion is on the way. Not such a big stretch to me.

Jaime compares himself and Cersei to the Targaryens. The Lannister twins have pulled off the ultimate mummer's dragon. They have committed incest (a Targ tradition) and placed their children (Joff, Tommen) on the throne under Robert's name. Tyrion has this knowledge and is on his way to Dany.

[Dragonfish]

Tyrion is on the way. Not such a big stretch to me.

Jaime compares himself and Cersei to the Targaryens. The Lannister twins have pulled off the ultimate mummer's dragon. They have committed incest (a Targ tradition) and placed their children (Joff, Tommen) on the throne under Robert's name. Tyrion has this knowledge and is on his way to Dany.

Again, this sounds like a stretch. Why would Tyrion be the mummer's dragon, simply for having such info? And if he's the mummer's dragon in Quaithe's warning, then who's the lion?

[DreamSongs]

The white lion could be Lancel (who's hair has turned white) or Jaime (member of KG). The ghost grass most likely refers to the Others.

Its all prophecy and open to interpretation.

[Quentyn the Blazed]

GRRM wasnt sure where he wanted to go with Aegon, so he made it ambiguous. He will decide if Aegon is real or not after he finishes twow and tries both out

[Dragonfish]

The white lion could be Lancel (who's hair has turned white) or Jaime (member of KG). The ghost grass most likely refers to the Others.

Its all prophecy and open to interpretation.

That's from the HotU. I'm talking about Quaithe's warning, in which she mentions that a "lion and griffin" are coming to her. The obvious interpretation is that she's referring to Tyrion and Griff.

[Dragonguard]

I'll concede that the banners you're referring to are probably made of cloth sewn onto cloth, rather than painted cloth (the latter scenario was based purely on my own layman's understanding of banners and sigils). However, I still don't think that banners that depict dragons can be described as cloth dragons, even if the image of the dragon is itself made of cloth. To me, the term "cloth dragon" denotes cloth arranged in the shape of a dragon, not just a two-dimensional image.

Thanks :lol:

Fair enought thats just the difference in how we read it - you are probably right in the context to be fair i was just pointing out that it could be either from the term used :thumbsup: its a prophecy after all - prophecies and memories in this series tend to be purposefully hazy but at the same time hinting at things eg. in theons dream of the feast of the dead when he sees lyanna (he never actually saw her death heck he never knew her at all) and when dany(?) sees robbs death he has the head of a wolf and looks at her - the cloth dragon could be straight forwardly 3d as you say/it could be representative of someone or merely symbolise something else such as false support for dany in westeros - its all down to the context and there is so little :bang:

[Lion of Judah]

Aegon is not going to Dany so I don't think he is the mummer that Quaithe was speaking of, and if Aegon is indeed a Blackfyre then he is a dragon. I think Bloodraven's comment about Daemon dreaming about a dragon being born at Whitewalls is evidence that Blackfyre Targaryans are indeed dragons.