R+L=J v.29

[Dragonfish]

"Unwilling to remember" =/= disagreeing with. If the King orders the KG off so he is left with no KG, GRRMs statement makes this possible. Barristan (not known for his deep thinking, more of a concrete guy) doesnt even imagine it. It's his POV, not a fact.

If Rhaegar had ordered the Kingsguard to kill Aerys, would they have done it?

[rmholt]

THis must be why everyone agrees on everything <G>

[The guy from the Vale]

Where was that?

It's pretty clear (to me at least), that Mormont's raven is warged by Bloodraven. There's a number of hints, among them Bloodraven's association with corvids and the act that he was LC of the NW himself, so it might well be that this raven has been accompanying Lord Commanders for decades now. This raven, however, calls Jon Snow 'King' numerous times, beginning with Jon I in ACoK, but also a dozen times during ADwD.

[rmholt]

If Rhaegar had ordered the Kingsguard to kill Aerys, would they have done it?

Rhaegar was not the king. Aerys was. Since your statement by necessity requires Aerys to be alive.

[Dragonfish]

Rhaegar was not the king. Aerys was. Since your statement by necessity requires Aerys to be alive.

The Kingsguard are supposed to follow Rhaegar's orders, as per the quote the GRRM that you harp on so much. Now answer the question.

[Dragonfish]

THis must be why everyone agrees on everything <G>

I have no idea what you're responding to, because you didn't include anything in the quote box.

[rmholt]

It's pretty clear (to me at least), that Mormont's raven is warged by Bloodraven. There's a number of hints, among them Bloodraven's association with corvids and the act that he was LC of the NW himself, so it might well be that this raven has been accompanying Lord Commanders for decades now. This raven, however, calls Jon Snow 'King' numerous times, beginning with Jon I in ACoK, but also a dozen times during ADwD.

And here is a competing story also based on the texts: The ravens used to be able to take what people said and carry the words to other people. They have their OWN powers. Why should bloodraven be necessary?

I happen to suspect the fools - as Dontos said, they hear EVERYthing. Maybe they have a secret network that will be significant. There is so much in the books and it will all be consistent but we dont have all the facts. When you have more variables than equations, the number of solutions is zero or infinite. I guess this is a case of infinite

[rmholt]

The Kingsguard are supposed to follow Rhaegar's orders, as per the quote the GRRM that you harp on so much. Now answer the question.

The KG are supposed to obey the KING"S orders, as per the GRRM quote.

How can I answer the question if Rhaegar is not the king and therefore not the guy the KG are supposed to obey.

Anyway KG did kill aerys, so moot.

[rmholt]

I have no idea what you're responding to, because you didn't include anything in the quote box.

I think the statement stands on its own

[Dragonfish]

And here is a competing story also based on the texts: The ravens used to be able to take what people said and carry the words to other people. They have their OWN powers. Why should bloodraven be necessary?

I don't recall this ever being said. Do you have a quote for this? What I recall is that people used to skinchange into ravens and then speak directly to whoever was receiving the message, instead of tying letters to their legs.

[rmholt]

The Kingsguard are supposed to follow Rhaegar's orders, as per the quote the GRRM that you harp on so much. Now answer the question.

Now do I say YOU are harping on something when you post the same stuff over and over. That isnt very adult.

Here's the answer: NO. Because Rhaegar is not the king. Derp.

[rmholt]

I don't recall this ever being said. Do you have a quote for this? What I recall is that people used to skinchange into ravens and then speak directly to whoever was receiving the message, instead of tying letters to their legs.

Yeah somewhere. Maybe. Later. I really dont recall the skinchanging. I thought the ravens did it all on their own. I think you know where the citation is. If you get impatient you can look it up yourself.

[SteelAndSnow]

It's pretty clear (to me at least), that Mormont's raven is warged by Bloodraven. There's a number of hints, among them Bloodraven's association with corvids and the act that he was LC of the NW himself, so it might well be that this raven has been accompanying Lord Commanders for decades now. This raven, however, calls Jon Snow 'King' numerous times, beginning with Jon I in ACoK, but also a dozen times during ADwD.

Oh. That. Yeah it's clear to me too. I thought Bloodraven actually said it and I had forgotten.

[Dragonfish]

The KG are supposed to obey the KING"S orders, as per the GRRM quote.

How can I answer the question if Rhaegar is not the king and therefore not the guy the KG are supposed to obey.

Here is what GRRM said:

"The King's Guards don't get to make up their own orders. They serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family, but they're also bound to obey their orders, and if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that. They can't say, "No we don't like that order, we'll do something else."

Now answer the question.

Anyway KG did kill aerys, so moot.

It's not moot. You're claiming that the Kingsguard would've done whatever they were ordered to do. My question goes to the heart of this assumption. Stop avoiding the question.

I think the statement stands on its own

I think you're confusing "the statement stands on its own" with "the statement doesn't make sense."

[Dragonfish]

Yeah somewhere. Maybe. Later. I really dont recall the skinchanging. I thought the ravens did it all on their own. I think you know where the citation is. If you get impatient you can look it up yourself.

I know where the citation for my quote is, but I don't know where the citation for yours is. I'm going to assume that you made it up until you provide a quote.

[The guy from the Vale]

And here is a competing story also based on the texts: The ravens used to be able to take what people said and carry the words to other people. They have their OWN powers. Why should bloodraven be necessary?

I happen to suspect the fools - as Dontos said, they hear EVERYthing. Maybe they have a secret network that will be significant. There is so much in the books and it will all be consistent but we dont have all the facts. When you have more variables than equations, the number of solutions is zero or infinite. I guess this is a case of infinite

But the word 'king' isn't uttered when the raven says it. Also, that the raven isn't just uttering random words it heard is made clear when the raven screams 'Burn! Burn!' during the wight attack in AGoT. The raven is giving Jon specific information on how to kill a wight.

As for why it has to be Bloodraven? Well, he's a greenseer, and hence also a warg (By Bloodraven's own statement, only wargs can become greenseers). We don't know of his animal, though... but we have indications. First of all, Bloodraven is a Blackwood by birth, much like Jon is a Stark; and just as the Starks are associated with Wolves, the Blackwoods are associated with ravens (sigil, heart tree with nesting ravens,...). Then there's also his nickname (Bloodraven) and his chosen form in Bran's and Jojen's dreams: a crow. Lastly, Bloodraven was LC of the Watch.

So, let me reverse-engineer the connection: We know of exactly one raven who is too smart for his own feathers. That particular raven is also connected to a position that Bloodraven himself held for some time. From both directions, both asking who might be behind that raven and asking which animal Bloodraven is warging, the most probably answer is: "Bloodraven is warging Momont's raven".

[rmholt]

I know where the citation for my quote is, but I don't know where the citation for yours is. I'm going to assume that you made it up until you provide a quote.

THat's your prerogative.

[rmholt]

Here is what GRRM said:

"The King's Guards don't get to make up their own orders. They serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family, but they're also bound to obey their orders, and if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that. They can't say, "No we don't like that order, we'll do something else."

Now answer the question.

It's not moot. You're claiming that the Kingsguard would've done whatever they were ordered to do. My question goes to the heart of this assumption. Stop avoiding the question.

I think you're confusing "the statement stands on its own" with "the statement doesn't make sense."

Now you are just being insulting. Ta.

[Dragonfish]

Now you are just being insulting. Ta.

So then you're not going to answer the question? Figures.

[rmholt]

So then you're not going to answer the question? Figures.

I. Said. Later. If you read my responses with the same care you read the text you would know this. Also the personal remark is uncalled for. I shall clarify: Ta ta for now