How many swords can the north truly rise?

[E-Ro]

Yaaay vindicated. :D

Yea, take that naysayers!

[Bourne]

The tyrells are not marching to the lannisters aid, not with marg, the ironborn, and feagon, the lannisters are broken. The army in the riverlands is about 10,000 small and shrinking. without the tyrells they are nothing. 27,000 northmen is more then enough to finnesh them for all time.

True, the Tyrells do kinda have there hands full at the moment. But that distraction will only last so long. And the North isn't exactly in a position to march at the moment. They better get on it if they want any chance.

Although I think you're quite underestimating the Westerlands current military strength. Regardless of how big their currently formed army is, they didn't use all the men they have at their disposal. Although, as many have already said, this is probably a pointless argument as the North is not going to march back below the neck even if they do manage to overthrow the Boltons and the Freys.

[E-Ro]

I agree it is just my wishes, I know it wont happen, just saying its possible.

[The Frosted King]

Like i said, some claiming 40-50k, but such a number is never implied by the books.

AFFC clearly states that Willas can raise 10k in two weeks.

Kevan clearly implied that the west could raise another host, but lacks for someone available to oversee such an endeavor.

If Robb could raise another twenty to thirty thousand men, what need did he have of the swords of the vale?

Yet, from his mouth, "the knights of the vale would make all the difference in this war" paraphrased.

Thirty thousand tops, and thats stretching it imo.

The Stark cause is imo the only justified cause(and my favorite by far), next to Stannis but it doesn't change the fact that forty to fifty thousand men is wishful thinking.

[E-Ro]

The ironborn in moat cailin prevented him from raising another army. And Are you sure about the kevan thing? Pretty sure the west is tapped out, Jaimes 15,000 smashed, the remnants of jaimes host and the "Sweeping of the west" 10,000 all smashed, leaving tywins 20,000 and after the green fork, numerous forced marches, skirmishes with the tullys, the battle of stone mill and the blackwater, tywins army is at the most 10,000 strong and tied up in the riverlands getting smaller every day.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

The ironborn in moat cailin prevented him from raising another army. And Are you sure about the kevan thing? Pretty sure the west is tapped out, Jaimes 15,000 smashed, the remnants of jaimes host and the "Sweeping of the west" 10,000 all smashed, leaving tywins 20,000 and after the green fork, numerous forced marches, skirmishes with the tullys, the battle of stone mill and the blackwater, tywins army is at the most 10,000 strong and tied up in the riverlands getting smaller every day.

^ Yeah, once the ironborn sweep in and set up shop in the Neck, Robb couldn't get a second wave south if he wanted to. So yeah, he could have used the Vale, especially when Tywin got, what, 65K sweeping the bottom of the barrel.

I stick by what I said, using extrapolations based on Robb's host and what's inferred by the stuff in ADWD (Manderly's forces, the Dustin forces, crannogmen and the mountain clans) and Clash (Rodrick Cassel getting 2,000 on short notice to retake Winterfell). Hardly "wishful thinking."

[The Frosted King]

^ Yeah, once the ironborn sweep in and set up shop in the Neck, Robb couldn't get a second wave south if he wanted to. So yeah, he could have used the Vale, especially when Tywin got, what, 65K sweeping the bottom of the barrel.

I stick by what I said, using extrapolations based on Robb's host and what's inferred by the stuff in ADWD (Manderly's forces, the Dustin forces, crannogmen and the mountain clans) and Clash (Rodrick Cassel getting 2,000 on short notice to retake Winterfell). Hardly "wishful thinking."

I normally agree with everything you say, but in this, i find it a visible reach.

Robb went south with eighteen thousand men. He never outlined the possibility of raising another damn near thirty thousand men.

Wouldn't that be something that was mentioned in one of the many counsels we see him having?

Even if the ironmen shut the door, he never mentioned the possiblity of such a waiting number of men being on the other side.

Why would the commanders think the war lost, if he had more men than he originally came south with waiting to be marched?

Why would the battle for Winterfell be fought with maybe eleven or twelve thousand men, altogether?

Where's the other twelve, or twenty thousand men?

Why didn't Jon snow mention these reserves when advising Stannis?

And we never get hardcore numbers from Manderly, or Dustin/Crannogmen. The only number we do get is the three thousand from Jon, who never mentions another such host waiting to be rallied.

If Martin pulls it off, then fine. But as of now, it doesn't seem to have been supported by the characters in the books read thus far.

[E-Ro]

I agree it is supported by numerous facts and outside sources, it is in no way wishful thinking. Stannis is not in the north for 10,000 men.

[E-Ro]

Robb went south with eighteen thousand men. He never outlined the possibility of raising another damn near thirty thousand men.

Wouldn't that be something that was mentioned in one of the many counsels we see him having?

Even if the ironmen shut the door, he never mentioned the possiblity of such a waiting number of men being on the other side.

Ser rodrick says if king robb needs more men he will send for them.

Why would the commanders think the war lost, if he had more men than he originally came south with waiting to be marched?(1

Why would the battle for Winterfell be fought with maybe eleven or twelve thousand men, altogether?(2

Where's the other twelve, or twenty thousand men?(3

Why didn't Jon snow mention these reserves when advising Stannis?(4

(1 they dont this is the freys and boltons getting ready to turn.

(2 Only a stark can raise the north.

(3 In villages spread throughout the north

(4 It would take a while to get them

[Shane the Llama]

Fact: Ser Rodrik raised 2000 men in a few days around Winterfell to take back Torhenn Square from the Ironborn.

Fact: Stannis found 3000 men in no time among the Mountain Clans

Fact: The Umbers and Karstarks raised about 1000 additional men between them in Dance

Fact: The Boltons had at least 1,000 men left in the North, including Ramsay's crack garrison of 600 men.

Fact: Skagos sent no men with Robb. They inhabit an island the size of England which took the power of a combined North to subdue 100 years ago. They can raise at least as many men as the Mountain Clans. That would be 3000 men.

Fact: In addition to the Mountain Clans, Stannis has had 1000 more men join him from the Stony Shore and the Wolfswood, with more streaming in every day still.

Fact: Lady Dustin tells Theon in Dance that she purposefully sent as few men as possible with Robb, keeping the bulk of her levies back in Barrowton. Considering that the Barrowlands are in the far south and much warmer than the Karstark lands that have so far yielded 3000 men, and that Barrowton is the largest town in the North, the Dustins must be able to raise at least twice the men that the Karstarks can. And if they kept the bulk of these back, they must have at a minimum 4000 more men.

Fact: Lord Manderly rules the only city in the North - with about 50,000 inhabitants. He also rules the most populous and fertile lands in the North, with a dozen lords and a hundred landed knights under his rule. At a conservative estimate, these lands must be able to raise around 12,000 men. He sent only 1.500 men with Robb, being tasked by Robb to defend the North's eastern shore instead and to raise a navy for the North (of which he has built and crewed 50 ships so far. At 100 men per ship, that's 5000 more men).

Altogether, he currently has a minimum of 10,000 men under his command. Probably more.

The above are all very low estimates, and yet they add up to another 25,000 - 30,000 men at least. Add that to Robb's initial force and you get to more than 45,000.

This excludes Crannogmen, who didn't march with Robb, but were tasked to guard the Neck instead, and refugees streaming from the isolated hinterlands into places like White Harbor and Deepwood Motte to form up new armies.

The North can raise 50,000 men, that's a certainty.

The only thing is, they cannot sustain an army of more than 20,000 at any one time, due to the massive supply chain this would require. Therefore, I reckon the North has never in 8,000 years marched with an army larger than 20,000 when crossing the Neck. The distances and logistics simply make it impractical.

But if Robb had escaped back to the North after the Red Wedding, I reckon he could have raised a second army of 20,000 men within 6 months, if required to. It is just that this is the maximum number that can be marched off south as a single army, given the logistical and practical realities of the North.

This is an excellent analysis of the North's strength, and one that I completely agree with. What is the common estimate of Bear Island's strength? I rarely see it mentioned in these threads, and I don't think the books ever detail how many soldiers the Mormont women brought to Robb's army.

[Free Northman]

This is an excellent analysis of the North's strength, and one that I completely agree with. What is the common estimate of Bear Island's strength? I rarely see it mentioned in these threads, and I don't think the books ever detail how many soldiers the Mormont women brought to Robb's army.

The Mormonts are in the far north, but they are one of the main banner houses under the Starks. In other words, they aren't vassals to other Houses, but are listed as among the main bannermen to House Stark. They are therefore of some significance.

Their island is approximately 100 miles long by about 50 miles wide. They also supplement their resources by extensive fishing in the surrounding sea.

I would put them as weaker than the Umbers - who rule a much larger area.

I would put the Mormonts strength at about 1000 - 1500 men.

[Third World King]

The ironborn in moat cailin prevented him from raising another army.

This is pure nonsense. Are you saying that Robb couldn't even send a single raven to any castle in the North commanding them to retake the Moat on both sides as the Boltons did? The North is running on fumes, they do not have soldiers nor provisions to march south again.

[Third World King]

I agree it is supported by numerous facts and outside sources, it is in no way wishful thinking. Stannis is not in the north for 10,000 men.

LOL Stannis is in the North because they are the only ones who will have him- Vale was never going to accept him, nor Riverlands, nor Dorne. Do you think the North will rally under a southron king with a measly host of 1500 men? There is a reason nobody is bothering to reply the ravens Stannis sent.

The Northmen will only bend their knee to someone more powerful than them, and Stannis ain't that man. Maybe Dany..

[E-Ro]

This is pure nonsense. Are you saying that Robb couldn't even send a single raven to any castle in the North commanding them to retake the Moat on both sides as the Boltons did? The North is running on fumes, they do not have soldiers nor provisions to march south again.

No, the north is not running on fumes, please read the thread in its entirety before posting. And ravens get shot down all the time.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

This is pure nonsense. Are you saying that Robb couldn't even send a single raven to any castle in the North commanding them to retake the Moat on both sides as the Boltons did? The North is running on fumes, they do not have soldiers nor provisions to march south again.

Oh, sending a raven would be easy. And it would be even easier to administer a large force in the North without a Stark in Winterfell, Winterfell itself burned and Hornwood, Bolton and Manderley already mired in civil war to descend on at the very least 10,000 Ironborn sitting in a bloody fortress.

One sentence is full of irony, make an educated guess.

The Boltons booted the tiniest, abandonned remnant involved in a months-long guerilla war from Moat Cailin. Not comparable.

[Faint]

I was given to understand that Ran previously asked the author about this subject and the quoted figure was 50,000 men. This was then repeated with all the regions. The Westerlands, for example, could raise 60,000 men and the Reach could field an army approaching 100,000 men.

[Third World King]

No, the north is not running on fumes, please read the thread in its entirety before posting. And ravens get shot down all the time.

Are you serious? So, Robb was prevented from raising a new host in the North because his ravens got shot down? That has to be the lamest excuse I've heard in a while. The truth of the matter is that Robb had no new host to call upon in the North. Most of the fighting men marched south with him, the only ones left were the crippled, greybeards, green boys etc. As of right now, the North cannot raise even half the fighters that went to war with Robb, everyone knows this though some choose to deny the hard truth in favor of fantasies.

Tywin may not have been honorable, but he was ruthless when it came to war. He wiped the North in a single night...

[pitakon]

seven and that includes my mom and three of her friends.

[Faint]

No, that isn't the case at all. It's much more difficult to marshal the total strength of the North than it is accomplish the same task in the Westerlands. This should be obvious. The very difference in geography between the two regions makes that quite clear.

Beyond that, Tywin was planning for war at an advanced date, so Robb didn't have the luxury of spending months getting his full force together (not if he wanted to save Riverrun from being taken).

[E-Ro]

Tywin may not have been honorable, but he was ruthless when it came to war. He wiped the North in a single night...

now I know you are a troll, Tywin has never even been in the north. Her is an idea for you, go read the books and when you can discuss things in an intelligent manner like a big boy come back.