How would the Northmen do if Ned was commanding Robb's forces?

[The Fallen]

So, what's you're point. I was saying Ned should be in the same boat as Hoster, Jon and so on. We don't know what his military abilities were.

The point is this. Ned was involved in more battles and events during Robert's Rebellion than Robert, Hoster and Jon Arryn. I'll take that to mean that he was, at the least, Robert's right-hand man if not his equal. Robert himself credits Ned. If you believe Robert was a top commander, but then choose to ignore all the signs that point to Ned also being as good, that's fine. We're all entitled to our opinion.

BTW, Robert's Rebellion was this close from being Eddard's Rebellion.

[Chaircat Meow]

The point is this. Ned was involved in more battles and events during Robert's Rebellion than Robert, Hoster and Jon Arryn. I'll take that to mean that he was, at the least, Robert's right-hand man if not his equal. Robert himself credits Ned. If you believe Robert was a top commander, but then choose to ignore all the signs that point to Ned also being as good, that's fine. We're all entitled to our opinion.

BTW, Robert's Rebellion was this close from being Eddard's Rebellion.

Aaargh, more of the same rubbish. Where is the bloody evidence for any of this. How was Ned involved in more battles than the others. We first see him at the bells and Hoster was there too and again at the Trident and they were all there and that's as far as it goes.

[Chaircat Meow]

BTW, Robert's Rebellion was this close from being Eddard's Rebellion.

Or just as close to being Jon Arryn's rebellion, which seeing as he raised his banners first and was a mentor figure might be the more accurate description.

[The Fallen]

He continues on to King's Landing and Storm's End, events that were a part of the rebellion. Did he know the Lannisters were on his side? Of course not. Did he know the Tyrells would bend the knee? Or course not. Why send Ned and not Jon Arryn or Hoster?

Again, there is no written evidence about any of the leaders of Houses Stark, Baratheon, Tully and Arryn. But there's enough info to assert that Ned was more than just Robert's lackey.

[The Fallen]

Or just as close to being Jon Arryn's rebellion, which seeing as he raised his banners first and was a mentor figure might be the more accurate description.

It was named Robert's Rebellion because he ended up taking the throne. It was there for Ned's taking. He didn't want it. I don't think Jon Arryn was in the same position. We can go on all night. Let's just agree to disagree.

[Chaircat Meow]

He continues on to King's Landing and Storm's End, events that were a part of the rebellion. Did he know the Lannisters were on his side? Of course not. Did he know the Tyrells would bend the knee? Or course not. Why send Ned and not Jon Arryn or Hoster?

Again, there is no written evidence about any of the leaders of Houses Stark, Baratheon, Tully and Arryn. But there's enough info to assert that Ned was more than just Robert's lackey.

Fine, he wasn't just a random dude but I didn't say that. He won no battles after the Trident because, as far as we know, there were none.

[Chaircat Meow]

It was named Robert's Rebellion because he ended up taking the throne.

Well I agree with that. But it seems like Robert was in command before that.

[Ragnorak]

Good point that Ned would have more influence in the Vale. He had been fostered there and had also fought alongside many lords of the Vale during the rebellion.

Have we ever heard anything about Ned's reputation in Dorne though?

Also, Balon would have attacked sans Theon. Theon is the one responsible for sacking WF but that's it.

I don't think we get a single outright reveal about Ned and Dorne. We know Ned returns Dawn to the Daynes. We know someone had to tell him where the Tower of Joy was (or that Lyanna was there.) There's that little squire named Ned (coincidence?) from Dorne who tells Arya Jon is his milk brother. So largely conjecture on my part but not pulled out of thin air. Mostly I got the impression that Doran and Oberyn would side with anyone not named Robert, Gregor or Amory who was looking to kill Tywin and had a shot at success. Unlike Robb, Ned had a track record of success.

I got the impression Balon got the letter Theon was coming home and started to prep for an attack then (which is why Theon sees it in the works when he arrives,) not that he was planning it anyway. IIRC it is just one line to the effect of "as soon as we got the letter." Could be wrong on that. I could easily see Balon telling Ned to pound sand on helping but I thought Theon's return is what led to his choice to attack the North.

[pitakon]

umm not really well... Ned is like a zombie from Walking Dead nowadays.

[The Fallen]

Well I agree with that. But it seems like Robert was in command before that.

I agree that Robert seemed to be in charge. And that always puzzled me, being that his House was arguably the weakest. Maybe it was his strength(cult?) of personality, not to mention that it's not a bad strategy to put the biggest, baddest and strongest individual up front.

[E-Ro]

Robert being a great commander doesn't mean Ned wasn't and Ned being a great commander does not mean Robert wasn't. The point is I feel they were both good and have the most experience. Between Roberts rebellion and the greyjoy rebellion they both have more exp then lord tywin. And remember these two grew up together, they had a lot of time to bond and their skills are complementary.

[Chaircat Meow]

I don't think we get a single outright reveal about Ned and Dorne. We know Ned returns Dawn to the Daynes. We know someone had to tell him where the Tower of Joy was (or that Lyanna was there.) There's that little squire named Ned (coincidence?) from Dorne who tells Arya Jon is his milk brother. So largely conjecture on my part but not pulled out of thin air. Mostly I got the impression that Doran and Oberyn would side with anyone not named Robert, Gregor or Amory who was looking to kill Tywin and had a shot at success. Unlike Robb, Ned had a track record of success.

I got the impression Balon got the letter Theon was coming home and started to prep for an attack then (which is why Theon sees it in the works when he arrives,) not that he was planning it anyway. IIRC it is just one line to the effect of "as soon as we got the letter." Could be wrong on that. I could easily see Balon telling Ned to pound sand on helping but I thought Theon's return is what led to his choice to attack the North.

Fair enough. Although after the WW they have more than some inkling Robb is also successful.

Ok, well I can't remember either. But given Balon's attitude towards Theon this attitude doesn't really make sense. He's traded him in for Asha as far as he is concerned. Releasing Theon was a tragedy because of Winterfell but I don't think it would have stopped the northern attack. Like I said, can't remember the text.

[Pod The Impaler]

Hypothetically. Let's say his wife's head got cut off instead of his.

Same scenario.

Let's say he didn't aid Stannis.

OK, well, assuming Catelyn got beheaded, but Robert Baratheon was still dead ?

It would be very hard to say Ned would not help Stannis - Ned would definitely spread the word about Cersei + Jaime = Jerkface Lannister. (If Catelyn was dead.)

If Ned isn't dead, are Arya and Sansa captives ? Important to know.

One thing he would do differently is send a different emissary to the Iron Islands, maybe put the offer better. But with no "King In The North", not sure if the offer of alliance would even be considered.

With Stannis, if he would not help him (though every sign says Ned would) then I see the following move:

He also may wed Robb to Margery, after Renlys dead, the Tyrells won't join the losing side

I doubt Ned would marry Robb to a Frey. He might do the Edmure / Roslin marriage, if Edmure agreed.

Robb would be for either Margaery Tyrell, or Arianne Martell. (Or perhaps Sansa / Quentyn.)

Ned would definitely reach out to Dorne, and emphasize that now was the time to bring the Lannisters down for murdering Elia and her children (which the realm knows he was against).

Ned would also rally the Vale, probably much more forcefully pushing Lysa to join. After all, Jon Arryn was murdered by the Lannisters (as people thought at the time), and Catelyn Tully was too. How could Lysa say no ?

So what we'd be looking at is: The North, The Riverlands, a good portion of The Stormlands, perhaps Dorne and/or Highgarden, and an outside chance of the Iron Islands too. All that versus the Lannisters, and maybe and outside chance of the Iron Islands (if they were that desperate).

Now if you want a more similar situation, I can tell you one thing Ned would not do - leave Winterfell woefully underprotected.

[Chaircat Meow]

I agree that Robert seemed to be in charge. And that always puzzled me, being that his House was arguably the weakest. Maybe it was his strength(cult?) of personality, not to mention that it's not a bad strategy to put the biggest, baddest and strongest individual up front.

Or maybe he was the best military leader. He gets praised for his forced marches, and his victories at Gulltown and Summerhall when Ned was not there.

[Chaircat Meow]

Robert being a great commander doesn't mean Ned wasn't and Ned being a great commander does not mean Robert wasn't. The point is I feel they were both good and have the most experience. Between Roberts rebellion and the greyjoy rebellion they both have more exp then lord tywin. And remember these two grew up together, they had a lot of time to bond and their skills are complementary.

Well fine, but its also no evidence that he is a great commander. And every other northern leader who fought in the rebellion and fought against the Greyjoys will be in the same boat.

I could bring up Tywin being hand for twenty years and annihilating two houses when he wasn't even twenty.

[The Fallen]

Or maybe he was the best military leader. He gets praised for his forced marches, and his victories at Gulltown and Summerhall when Ned was not there.

That could also be the case. Although I think initially there would be no way of knowing that. Robert was only about 20 years old with no military experience that we know of. So you would think that Jon Arryn would have been the leader initially with Robert replacing him after it becomes obvious that he's a better leader. But the way it reads in the novels, it seems like Robert was the leader of the rebellion almost from the beginning.

[Garlan Marius]

Robb was a surprisingly good battle commander, but a lot of his victories were likely due to Tywin/ Jaime/ Stafford underestimating him. Ned's definitely better, but he would be taken seriously from the beginning and might have had more issues on the battlefield.

Politically, Ned would have made sure not to cross (ha!) the Freys; Robb would be married on the way across. Rickard Karstark would have lived, Roose would be held to stricter scrutiny, and Balon wouldn't rise. Ned has that kind of sway, I think.

[Winterfell is Burning]

Have we ever heard anything about Ned's reputation in Dorne though?

Not really, but is obviously better than Robert's, and no one blames Ned for what happened with Rhaenys and Aegon.

Also, Balon would have attacked sans Theon. Theon is the one responsible for sacking WF but that's it.

Balon would NEVER do it if Theon was a hostage. Not in one million years. Never.

People say that because he was already organizing an army when Theon arrived, but he had full knowledge Theon was heading there weeks before he arrived, and even so he wasn't necessarily preparing a move against the North. If he attacks, then Theon is executed and he's seen as a kinslayer by his own men and wouldn't be supported. He also refused to execute Euron when he had a lot more motive than he had with Theon.

Not to mention he wouldn't pull that if Ned was alive, because Balon is a coward.

Or maybe he was the best military leader. He gets praised for his forced marches, and his victories at Gulltown and Summerhall when Ned was not there.

No, we know that Ned was at least an equal, if not better, because Robert is described as too impulsive and reckless, Catelyn compares Renly to Robert before the (non) battle with Stannis because of this, and says Ned would control Robert's impulses with caution.

Arryn was the one leading in Gulltown, since they were his bannermen, although Robert killed the Gulltown lord himself.

That could also be the case. Although I think initially there would be no way of knowing that. Robert was only about 20 years old with no military experience that we know of. So you would think that Jon Arryn would have been the leader initially with Robert replacing him after it becomes obvious that he's a better leader. But the way it reads in the novels, it seems like Robert was the leader of the rebellion almost from the beginning.

Robert becoming formal head of it had nothing to do with him being a better leader, it was about him having a better claim to the Iron Throne, and more charisma.

I could bring up Tywin being hand for twenty years and annihilating two houses when he wasn't even twenty.

Yes, two houses that were fighting...all the other houses of the West (and we know that because the houses that refused support would have had the same fate). And as for his military skill as Hand, his failure at Duskendale is proof that he was far from the greatest military mind- he relied too much on intimidation and superior strength.

[Chaircat Meow]

Not really, but is obviously better than Robert's, and no one blames Ned for what happened with Rhaenys and Aegon.

Balon would NEVER do it if Theon was a hostage. Not in one million years. Never.

People say that because he was already organizing an army when Theon arrived, but he had full knowledge Theon was heading there weeks before he arrived, and even so he wasn't necessarily preparing a move against the North. If he attacks, then Theon is executed and he's seen as a kinslayer by his own men and wouldn't be supported. He also refused to execute Euron when he had a lot more motive than he had with Theon.

Not to mention he wouldn't pull that if Ned was alive, because Balon is a coward.

No, we know that Ned was at least an equal, if not better, because Robert is described as too impulsive and reckless, Catelyn compares Renly to Robert before the (non) battle with Stannis because of this, and says Ned would control Robert's impulses with caution.

Arryn was the one leading in Gulltown, since they were his bannermen, although Robert killed the Gulltown lord himself.

Robert becoming formal head of it had nothing to do with him being a better leader, it was about him having a better claim to the Iron Throne, and more charisma.

Yes, two houses that were fighting...all the other houses of the West (and we know that because the houses that refused support would have had the same fate). And as for his military skill as Hand, his failure at Duskendale is proof that he was far from the greatest military mind- he relied too much on intimidation and superior strength.

Eh, I never heard that you got called a kinslayer when someone killed one of your relatives held as a hostage.

And it can take a while to organize a fleet and army.

[pitakon]

I doubt Ned would marry Robb to a Frey.

Thats pure BS. Its not like the frey girl was fugly. I'm sure if Robb was promised to a Lannister and then he got injured in the Twins and slept with a Frey, he would have married that Frey girl even if it was Fat Walda. Ned would have done the same thing Catelyn did, and that is promise his son to secure passage. Now if Walder Frey would have chosen the girl instead of Robb, then Ned would disagree.