How did the female characters in GRRM books inspire the most...shall we say fervor?

[Lady Arianne Martell]

I was just honestly wondering.

I barely see any male characters inspire the long arguments and discussion that Sansa, Cersei, Catelyn, and Dany do. Now, I partake in these discussions as well, so I wanted to know what you guys think is the reason that we all respond so...PASSIONATELY to each of these strong women?

I know that I dislike Dany and love the other three, and find myself arguing with people the most about these characters.

Why do you think they supply such passion for us readers?

[The Fallen]

` I can only speak for myself. Sansa was a character I disliked because of what she represented initially. The haughty attitude, how she referred to Jon and how she treated Arya. But mostly it was how she betrayed Arya and Ned in favor of the Lannisters. I don't want to start an argument about her actions. I feel bad for what she's had to go through, but it's almost a case of being careful of what you wish for. Catelyn I have no problem with at all. Cersei doesn't get much reaction from me. In fact, I don't think I've ever posted on a single Cersei thread. As a matter of fact, I don't think I've ever even read the initial post for one. Pesonally, there's not much to argue about; she's a horrible person. With regards to Dany, I've always liked her and was rooting for her through AFfC. But she annoyed me in ADwD with some ridiculous decision-making. I'm not off the Dany bandwagon, nor do I hate her. But she needs to bring her ass to Westeros already.

All in all, I see no reason to beat up on any of the females. However, I have noticed the ferocity with which female readers defend the women of Westeros and that might be why you get such long discussions about women as opposed to men.

[The-Spiders-Little-Bird]

Sansa I think you are supposed to hate at the beginning because of her vanity and silly boy crushes, which are natural, but incredibly dumb. She also unwittingly leads to the death of her father, one of the precious few honorable characters in the book. I think Sansa ends up being one of the true heroes of the book by the end, and that she represents Martins most successful character arc over the course of the series.

Cercei we are supposed to despise, and in any event she is bat-shit-crazy. It is what it is, and I dont see a really good way to defend her.

Cat I despise because she bumbles her way around the first two books, and despite being a highborn woman commanding the loyalty of many, her actions are generally impulsive and overly passionate in a way which heaps misery on her loyal banner-men and children. Indeed Un-Cat is only the normal Cat pushed to an extreme, and deprived of her inhibitions. I understand the argument for this being a gendered objection to her character, and how she is despised mostly because she doesn't "play the game", but the end result for her actions is as I said a lot of suffering for her people, and I cant forgive that simply because she is a good mother who only did what she thought was best for her babies.

Dani I think is despised mostly because she isn't terribly well written, she displays all of the Targaryn vices, she can be annoying and repetitive at times, and seems to lack the experience necessary to effectively fill the roles to which she aspires. I think her ultimate fate will be extreme madness, and to that end the objections to her character are more based on her mental capacities rather than her gender.

In general, I think the main reason for the passionate debates on these women is the fact that there is some gendered bias against these characters, which results in woman readers feeling a great need to defend the characters in spite of their flaws. The books by in large deal with the "mans world", and create a natural disposition against feminine traits and passions, and the characters which act and respond to these problems with feminine traits tend to screw things up, which leads to the most successful women being more masculine in attitude (the Dornish women and Brienne for instance). I dont think that it truly is helpful to women to defend their own uncritically, or that in general a openly subjective approach to an issue can ever be a effective way to learn and improve ones understanding, and to that degree I think the defense of the women is a problematic approach for female readers. Be that as it may, it certainly is understandable to me why it happens.

[Jon Mark Selmy]

All in all, I see no reason to beat up on any of the females. However, I have noticed the ferocity with which female readers defend the women of Westeros and that might be why you get such long discussions about women as opposed to men.

This. Some readers mistake any criticism of female characters, particularly Catelyn, Cersei, Dany and Sansa as misoginy or as a criticism of females as a whole. Granted, sometimes this IS the case, we still live on a quite sexist society. However I frankly find it quite mind bogglingly that otherwise inteligent and articulated posters have somehow biased themselves into taking any criticism of their favorite characters so bad. I'm sure most people would still have the same criticism if they were men.

When I say (and I have said) that Eddard Stark is a 'good' person, but an awful politic', everybody seems to agree. But when I say the same about Catelyn Stark, suddenly we got a 10 pages long discussion that leads to nowhere. I'd really like if people would just stop assuming that any criticism of female characters equals misoginy. If anything they should blame Martin for making almost all of his characters, male and female, quite flawed and thus deserving of criticism.

As for the characters themselves, none of the four is among my favorites, but I don't really have anything against them either:

- Catelyn is a good person (except concerning Jon Snow) and a good mother, and an interesting POV. But she IS an important factor about the fall of the Stark family.

- Sansa is also a good person (although quite spoiled and entitled at the begning of the books). My main problem with her is that her POV gets kindda boring sometimes.

- Dany is fine on my book (at least until she start acting a bit crazy lately) and her POV is a 8 or 80 thing, varying from very interesting to tremendously boring.

- Cersei is obviously evil and incompetent. But then again, she is supposed to be a vilain, you know (a.k.a. a very dark shade of grey)? Plus her POV is very interesting.

Arianne, Brienne and specially Arya, are among my favorite characters though.

[brashcandy]

I haven't been here long enough to see all the Sansa flamewars, but I know what I don't like about her. By the way some posters respond, it seems like some take a criticism of her as an attack on all women. It's bizarre.

When it comes down to it, the reason (IMO) female readers will passionately defend some of the female characters in the series, and particularly on certain issues, is because we do combat these same issues and criticisms in our own lives. Women have to deal with sexism, misogyny, double standards, slut shaming, harassment, assault and other biased judgements and abuses which attempt to diminish our value and restrict our agency. Coming to a forum and seeing the same kinds of prejudices being perpetuated under the guise of critical analysis makes me pretty mad. Of course, I am not claiming to represent all the female readers of ASOIAF, just giving my opinion on where I'm coming from.

[Winter's Knight]

When it comes down to it, the reason (IMO) female readers will passionately defend some of the female characters in the series, and particularly on certain issues, is because we do combat these same issues and criticisms in our own lives. Women have to deal with sexism, misogyny, double standards, slut shaming, harassment, assault and other biased judgements and abuses which attempt to diminish our value and restrict our agency. Coming to a forum and seeing the same kinds of prejudices being perpetuated under the guise of critical analysis makes me pretty mad. Of course, I am not claiming to represent all the female readers of ASOIAF, just giving my opinion on where I'm coming from.

Representing me just fine.

[Jem]

When it comes down to it, the reason (IMO) female readers will passionately defend some of the female characters in the series, and particularly on certain issues, is because we do combat these same issues and criticisms in our own lives. Women have to deal with sexism, misogyny, double standards, slut shaming, harassment, assault and other biased judgements and abuses which attempt to diminish our value and restrict our agency. Coming to a forum and seeing the same kinds of prejudices being perpetuated under the guise of critical analysis makes me pretty mad. Of course, I am not claiming to represent all the female readers of ASOIAF, just giving my opinion on where I'm coming from.

Representing me just fine, too.

This is pretty much it in a nutshell for me. Well said.

[Hear Us Roar]

They do a lot of stupid things mainly.

The biggest offenders are Dany, Catelyn, Cersei, and Sansa.

I call out the stupid men as well and made threads about them. The biggest male offenders are Rob, Ned, Robert, Rhaegar etc.

My favourite females are the sand snakes, arriane, Arya, Margaery, Olenna Tyrell

As for Brienne i have no issues with her other than the fact i find her boring and not worth being a POV character. She also is not the most intelligent, seeing her blunder around town after town asking "have you seen a fair maid with auburn hair" Seriously that was her plan and we had to sit there and watch it over and over.

[Eira Seren]

part of it, I think, is that for a rather long time in the history of the fantasy genre, there were fewer female characters. that started changing more after about 50 years, but it is still sometimes a slow change. sometimes the existing characters aren't quite so well written, either. for example, Arwyn in Lord of the Rings is one of my favorites, but her part had to be significantly enlarged for the movie series. in the books the things she does are fairly important, but often occur off-page. In some series, like Jack Whyte's Camulod Chronicles, a lot of the female characters who participate in action of any sort seem to get killed off. In that respect, I was rather disappointed in Ygritte's fate, it seemed a little too predictable.

And yet, in this series, GRRM has created characters that we might align with the Maiden or the Crone, but they don't fit exactly, just like his prophecies and timelines and other characters don't fit exactly into a particular framework or predictable type. Tyrion and Jaime--baddass, bad guys, or struggling with some serious human shortcomings (and Tywin issues)? Arya and Sansa also have multi-layered complications, and they happen on-page. It is refreshing to have multiple POVs. And Cersei might be your typical evil female, but then, she's just watched the murder of one of her children, and made to experience a very public humiliation. Dany might not be as well-developed, but then i find the entire Essos continent seems to suffer at times from this problem. is that because we see the Essosi through Dany's perception, or because of the writing? at any rate, i find the female and male characters intensely fascinating, whether i dislike them or love them.

[David C. Hunter]

A lot of people just do not want to forgive Sansa for what she did to Ned and in a lot of ways it really does not matter what she does from now on

I like Sansa.

I terms of Cersei and Dany (The two characters I detest in this series) for me it has nothing to do with their sex. I can tell you that if Dany was a guy I would dislike her all the same. My animosity towards Dany is really my animosity towards all Targaryans. Cersei to me is the main portagonist in this series and is the least forgiving for her mistakes. She is turning darker, not the other way around. They are just unrelatable to me.

One more factor IMO that Dany, Cersei and Sansa(until recently) have are the ways they look down on people.Cersei has said in many many ways how little she cares for the people she evidently rules. She gives women to be tortured to Qyburn, she treats her younger brother like scum ever since his birth because he is a dwarf, etc. Sansa, who so desperately wanted to be like them was the same way. Even the way she acted when she married Tyrion was unnecessary, considering how nice he was trying to be towards her. Dany is like that to a lesser extent, but she still harps on empty phrases. Her mannerisms and lack of trying to understand the culture of the cities she has burned to the ground show off her arrogance.

If this was Aegon doing this, I would hate him all the same. It is no coincidence that many readers look at these three characters as the most useless ones in the series. Sansa is the only one who is changing and her chapters are getting better to me.

Thats why I identify with the North more. The line is more blurred between lord and pleasant(This is just my take on the readings).

When I see Cersei or Dany with their servants it is a clear distinction. When I see Jon Snow with his Men, Ned Stark with his guard, etc it is a completely different atmosphere.

In the world of westeros in which women are property, they have to do what they have to do to survive. Seduction and deception never bothered me.

That is why it is always a pleasure to read a Brienne, Arianne Martell or Asha Greyjoy chapter.

Idk, I was kinda all over the place, but thats my take on the female characters

[Monica21]

When I say (and I have said) that Eddard Stark is a 'good' person, but an awful politic', everybody seems to agree. But when I say the same about Catelyn Stark, suddenly we got a 10 pages long discussion that leads to nowhere. I'd really like if people would just stop assuming that any criticism of female characters equals misogyny. If anything they should blame Martin for making almost all of his characters, male and female, quite flawed and thus deserving of criticism.

Could not agree more. I can find fault with all of GRRM's characters but I can also see a character arc with almost all of them.

I do however, think that a poster who comes into a topic and says "So and so is stupid" or "so and so is a bitch" and just leaves it at that is asking for it. Very few of GRRM's characters can be described so one-dimensionally and especially not the POV characters. As a woman, when I read a poster stating that Sansa is stupid I get angry, and I don't believe it's an irrational anger. Yes, there are valid critiques and those are interesting and provide more perspective, but blanket statements about the female characters with nothing supporting them is really my biggest issue.

[Free Northman]

Because Dany is mad, Catelyn is madder and Cersei is maddest of all.

[Jon Mark Selmy]

part of it, I think, is that for a rather long time in the history of the fantasy genre, there were fewer female characters. that started changing more after about 50 years, but it is still sometimes a slow change. sometimes the existing characters aren't quite so well written, either. for example, Arwyn in Lord of the Rings is one of my favorites, but her part had to be significantly enlarged for the movie series. in the books the things she does are fairly important, but often occur off-page. In some series, like Jack Whyte's Camulod Chronicles, a lot of the female characters who participate in action of any sort seem to get killed off. In that respect, I was rather disappointed in Ygritte's fate, it seemed a little too predictable.

Quite valid point, but this might be a problem intrinsic to the fantasy genre, unless you imagine a setting VERY different from medieval europe on regards to women rights (most D&D worlds are like that, specifically in order to allow people to create female action characters). Medieval fantasy is usually about fighting, going to war and doing all that stuff that women were not really allowed to do on real medieval times. Martin seems to get around this problem pretty well both by creating exceptions (with his Aryas and Briennes) and by constructing a narrative that also takes into account marriages and courtly intrigue, but still, most adventurous characters will be male and this is a very justified trope.

This is why the characters who try to deal with the main conflicts of the books using atributes tradionally associated with females, like Catelyn, Sansa and Cersei fail at it: this is the story being realistic, they have no combat training and live in a society where they are second class citizens at best and valuable goodies at worst.

I particularly am of the opinion that more 'realistic' fantasy that solves the issue of 'no women main characters' by following the exceptions are more interesting than creating an alternate world where women's issues simply do not exist. This is probably why I prefer the female characters that challenge their traditional female roles rather than the ones who conform to it and survive despite of it. To me it's a lot like they are saying 'see, we can do it too'.

For that matter, I also think that women's rights activism should be more about empowering women and helping them step outside their traditional roles rather than sheltering and pampering them and then saying: 'oh, poor women, they need some kind of head-start' as it has been sometimes. The same is true for any other minority, be it gay, black, latino (a prejudice I'll probably suffer if I ever live on the USA or Europe since I am Brazilian) or whatever.

[Ser_Patreck]

It's more or less this:

Dany is a terrible ruler, a firm believer in racist entitlement (I'm the blood of Old Valyria) and has the "might makes right" mindset of a conqueror, and not the trapping of a just ruler. Thus, I dislike her.

Cersei is a psychopath, a sadist, a paranoid, a Stalin with teats. Thus, I dislike her.

Catelyn is a reasonable and well-likable human being. The only time I banged my head against the wall reading her was when she released Jaime, but I guess I can see where she was coming from. And I banged my head in the wall the same way when Robb sent Theon, and Theon alone, to deal with Balon.

Sansa is a brat in the first half of aGoT and a sympathetic character on the rest of the series. Same with Arianne, mutatis mutandis.

Problem is that some posters will treat "Wow, Dany suck at ruling" as "Wow, women suck at ruling". It's tiresome.

[Jon Mark Selmy]

I do however, think that a poster who comes into a topic and says "So and so is stupid" or "so and so is a bitch" and just leaves it at that is asking for it. Very few of GRRM's characters can be described so one-dimensionally and especially not the POV characters. As a woman, when I read a poster stating that Sansa is stupid I get angry, and I don't believe it's an irrational anger. Yes, there are valid critiques and those are interesting and provide more perspective, but blanket statements about the female characters with nothing supporting them is really my biggest issue.

But what about posters who come and say the same about a male character? Do you indentify yourself with Sansa? Well, I indentify myself with Stannis. He has many of my flaws and many of my qualities, you see? We are both: very strict, slightly controlish, in constant disagreements with our families, very unforgiving of mistakes specially our own, too determined for our own good, firms believers in the fact that 'the good does not erases the bad', do not suffer fools easily, have a very harsh sense of humor and are willing to do what we believe to be the right thing at all coasts.

And yet, sometimes, I'll read some criticism of him that is just 'Stannis is a crazy evil and stupid jackass who burns people for fun, all hail Danny the true queen of Westeros!'. I usually don't start 10 page threads about it, though. I just think 'what a moron' and proceed with my day.

[Ser_Patreck]

I do however, think that a poster who comes into a topic and says "So and so is stupid" or "so and so is a bitch" and just leaves it at that is asking for it. Very few of GRRM's characters can be described so one-dimensionally and especially not the POV characters. As a woman, when I read a poster stating that Sansa is stupid I get angry, and I don't believe it's an irrational anger. Yes, there are valid critiques and those are interesting and provide more perspective, but blanket statements about the female characters with nothing supporting them is really my biggest issue.

Funny, I get the same rage whenever someone says "Ned was honorable but stupid", "Stupid Ned honor", or "Stupid, boring Quentyn Martell". Or, God forbid, "Whining, self-piteous Tyrion" (Tangent: The word "whining" contains such "Internet tough guy's" disregard for human feelings, invalidation even, that I hate it in any circumstance and make the most to NOT use it).

[A song away]

I think the passion is partly because they get judged harder.

Look at some of the totally cruel and horrible things the Boltons do, but lots of male readers find them cool or funny. These are often the same readers who vilify female characters for every mistake (which were often made with good or noble intentions).

Same as how women are usually judged more harsher in every day life (a male bully at work is 'assertive', a woman a 'bitch')

We feel that pressure and I think that's part of the reason some female readers defend female characters so strongly.

[brashcandy]

This is why the characters who try to deal with the main conflicts of the books using atributes tradionally associated with females, like Catelyn, Sansa and Cersei fail at it: this is the story being realistic, they have no combat training and live in a society where they are second class citizens at best and valuable goodies at worst.

I'm just a bit curious as to how these women failed at using attributes traditionally associated with females? Sansa's courtesy armour is still in effect and working for her; Catelyn had successes with diplomacy until her efforts were fucked up by hard headed men, and Cersei's sexuality and manipulative skills worked for her fairly well up to AFFC. Combat training is definitely not the be all and end all of solving crises in ASOIAF.

I particularly am of the opinion that more 'realistic' fantasy that solves the issue of 'no women main characters' by following the exceptions are more interesting than creating an alternate world where women's issues simply do not exist. This is probably why I prefer the female characters that challenge their traditional female roles rather than the ones who conform to it and survive despite of it. To me it's a lot like they are saying 'see, we can do it too'.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems as though you're saying here that you prefer women to act like men and have more respect and value for the ones who do so because it means they've been able to prove that they're just as good as men. Sansa did not survive despite her traditional femininity, but because of it. I can see no reason why it would be necessary for a woman to be held to a male standard of behaviour, unless of course one holds the view that masculinity is naturally superior and better.

For that matter, I also think that women's rights activism should be more about empowering women and helping them step outside their traditional roles rather than sheltering and pampering them and then saying: 'oh, poor women, they need some kind of head-start' as it has been sometimes. The same is true for any other minority, be it gay, black, latino (a prejudice I'll probably suffer if I ever live on the USA or Europe since I am Brazilian) or whatever.

I would advise that you're monumentally mistaken concerning the nature of feminist activism. Women are not empowered by being told that they should stop acting feminine, or embrace masculine qualities or leave the home etc etc. I'm just not even going to touch the rest of your condescending appreciation of the struggles of racial and sexual minorities.

[Grip]

Because Dany is mad, Catelyn is madder and Cersei is maddest of all.

Oh I wouldnt say that Catelyn is mad, far from it. She is in most cases reasonable, certainly when advising Robb. Nor is Dany mad imo. She is just inexperienced and incompetent, at times. Cersei on the other hand..If not mad then perhaps not far from it, again at times.

I like both Catelyn and Sansa, they like everyone else in ASOIAF (female or not) can be "stupid" at times.

[Jon Mark Selmy]

I'm just a bit curious as to how these women failed at using attributes traditionally associated with females? Sansa's courtesy armour is still in effect and working for her; Catelyn had successes with diplomacy until her efforts were fucked up by hard headed men, and Cersei's sexuality and manipulative skills worked for her fairly well up to AFFC. Combat training is definitely not the be all and end all of solving crises in ASOIAF.

My statement was more about fantasy in general. ASOIAF is a bit different. And yet, Sansa is basically a hostage and has been so through most of the books, while Arya has scaped. Catelyn is a bad politic, same as her husband (even when they both are quite decent people). And Cersei is an evil, deranged and incompetent person who basicaly alienated all her potential allies. But please, pretty please, you said what you think about it, I did the same. If you wanna keep on discussing them, let's do it on any one of the three thousand threads about it, shall we? I'll even answer your post, I promise.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems as though you're saying here that you prefer women to act like men and have more respect and value for the ones who do so because it means they've been able to prove that they're just as good as men.

No, I'm actually deconstructing the idea that such and such things are 'for women' and such and such things are 'for men'. I like to cook, have a male friend who practices ballet (and happens not to be gay) as well as at least two friends who are girls and very competent kung fu fighters (I've fought too in the past). I don't see any reason for you or anyone to hold so much to gender roles.

I can see no reason why it would be necessary for a woman to be held to a male standard of behaviour, unless of course one holds the view that masculinity is naturally superior and better.

Again, it's only a 'male' standard of behavior because our society said so. Masculinity is not superior and better, but being abble to stand up for oneself and fight one's own battles certainly is, like women are traditionally tought not to. This should probably end.

I would advise that you're monumentally mistaken concerning the nature of feminist activism. Women are not empowered by being told that they should stop acting feminine, or embrace masculine qualities or leave the home etc etc. I'm just not even going to touch the rest of your condescending appreciation of the struggles of racial and sexual minorities.

And I would advise that... errrr... how I'll put it without sounding offensive... you're fairly mistaken at interpreting society. I don't devaluate housework. God knows (that is only a figure of speech to me) how much I hated when I had no money to pay somebody to do it and had to do it on my own. It's hard as hell. But I think that, yeah, women shouldn't be acomodated on their 'traditional' feminine roles and stand up for themselves if they are to ever be socially equal to men.

EDIT: I KNEW I should never have touched on this subject here. I'm male, heterosexual and white-ishy. How dare I presume to know anything about minorities? It's not like I'm a left-wing militant who discusses these very same issues at least once a week.