Jon Snow is NOT a Targaryen

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Double post sorry

[FanTasy]

This is Martin whacking readers over the head with R+L=J. You "not wanting to buy it" I sense has more to do with obtuseness.

I'm not saying R+L=J is not true, I think there is some sturdy evidence for it.

But this line could be hinting at something else, for instance the effect of Robb's will, or that Jon could become the next King beyond the Wall.

[dragontamer]

The dragon has three heads, he needed another child and Elia could died if she had more children

The fact that he needed a third child is irrelevant to the fact that he needed a child from Lyanna. He could have made a much safer choice. And also the third head doesn't need to be Rhaegar's child.

[danm_999]

I'm not saying R+L+J is not true, I think there is some sturdy evidence for it.

But this line could be hinting at something else, for instance the effect of Robb's will, or that Jon could become the next King beyond the Wall.

It's not the first time he uses it in Jon's presence however, it's just the most noticeable. He's using it back as far as AGOT IIRC, which kind of suggests it's something innate to Jon.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

The fact that he needed a third child is irrelevant to the fact that he needed a child from Lyanna. He could have made a much safer choice. And also the third head doesn't need to be Rhaegar's child.

Yes but the fact he kidnapped (that is what we know now) Lyanna and the KG were in ToJ, and all those prophecies (Blue winter roses in the wall etc.) made the R+L=J very clear and obvious.

[Dany4eva]

Even if he is a bastard, the there is chance that some king will legitimise him once they find out his true heritage. I know people think dany is power hungry but once she finds out jon is her nephew, she may step down n legitimise(assuming she takes the iron throne) and he can be king and she can go off with daario.

[FanTasy]

It's not the first time he uses it in Jon's presence however, it's just the most noticeable. He's using it back as far as AGOT IIRC, which kind of suggests it's something innate to Jon.

What was said by a raven is described in the books in a very subtle way. It starts by letting them just repeat the last word that was said, or demanding things (corn, blood). It is very subtle, sometimes they say things that are not just a repetition - and of course this has to be very meaningful.

Something to watch out for on my next re-read :drunk:

[Jon's Queen Consort]

he be king and she can go off with daario.

Only this is cool. Can I have one?

[Scipio Africanus]

I don't believe he's a Targaryen either; or I don't want to believe it.

I mean, from the beginning of the whole bloody series we learnt that looks are inherited when crossed with specific families. And then the big mystery reveal in the end will tell us that Jon Snow, who looks so much like his father, with the classic Stark look is a Targaryen! Come on.

"But he had Lyanna for a mother, she looked like a Stark!"

- Well I think it's cheap if the Targaryen features were washed over to completely normal features. (Grey eyes, brown hair) Especially since genes in ASOIAF seem to be magical.

Arya looked like a Stark while all the other children took after Catelyn Tully. Or it could just be that Arya too is a secret Targ...

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Arya looked like a Stark while all the other children took after Catelyn Tully. Or it could just be that Arya too is a secret Targ...

:agree:

Didn't Rhaenys who was a Targ looked like Martell, took after Elia with brown hair and all?

[The Promised Prince]

Even if he is a bastard, the there is chance that some king will legitimise him once they find out his true heritage. I know people think dany is power hungry but once she finds out jon is her nephew, she may step down n legitimise(assuming she takes the iron throne) and he can be king and she can go off with daario.

Or Jon might meet her on the battlefield, stab her and voila! Lightbringer is created.

[Scipio Africanus]

:agree:

Didn't Rhaenys who was a Targ looked like Martell, took after Elia with brown hair and all?

Jon not looking like Rhaeger is not a convincing arguement in my view.

The big problem with this whole discussion is those THREE bloody KGs who stuck around at the ToJ AFTER Rhaeger left.

They were obviously guarding another member(s) of the Royal family. I have yet to read any other convincing explination why the hell those dudes would stay behind.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Jon not looking like Rhaeger is not a convincing arguement in my view.

The big problem with this whole discussion is those THREE bloody KGs who stuck around at the ToJ AFTER Rhaeger left.

They were obviously guarding another member(s) of the Royal family. I have yet to read any other convincing explination why the hell those dudes would stay behind.

I agree with everything you said. After all when it comes to appearance Targs with non-Targs mothers sometimes favours the mothers in colors.

The most important as you said is the KG at ToJ. They wouldn't protect a bastard (after all it's the Sword of the Morning and the White Bull we talk about) so the baby must be trueborn.

[dragontamer]

Yes but the fact he kidnapped (that is what we know now) Lyanna and the KG were in ToJ, and all those prophecies (Blue winter roses in the wall etc.) made the R+L=J very clear and obvious.

Actually if you look back a few posts my argument was mainly about Jon's legitimacy and the presence of the KG at the TOJ. But you only chose to respond to the last sentence of it.

Even though I don't support the R+L=J theory I can understand why so many people support it but when it comes to Jon's legitimacy, imo, is based only on fans speculations.

Also the blue rose is associated with Lyanna, no connection with Rhaegar. I tend to believe that Jon is Lyanna's son but not Rhaegar's. Martin gave enough hints imo to approach the truth but not grasp it entirely.

Jon is a Stark, that's his character's identity, everything that makes him who he is. He could never embrace any other identity or he would lose all trades his character is based on.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Actually if you look back a few posts my argument was mainly about Jon's legitimacy and the presence of the KG at the TOJ. But you only chose to respond to the last sentence of it.

Even though I don't support the R+L=J theory I can understand why so many people support it but when it comes to Jon's legitimacy, imo, is based only on fans speculations.

Also the blue rose is associated with Lyanna, no connection with Rhaegar. I tend to believe that Jon is Lyanna's son but not Rhaegar's. Martin gave enough hints imo to approach the truth but not grasp it entirely.

Jon is a Stark, that's his character identity, everything that makes him who he is. He could never embrace any other identity or he would lose all trades his character is based on.

No blue rose was what Rhaegar gave her and her room where Rhaegar kept her was full of blue roses. So it's about Rhaegar too.

I didn't said anything about his identity. If he is legitimized (if R+L=J he must be) he is legaly an Targ. Legaly is totally different from psychologically.

[Dany4eva]

*double post

[Dany4eva]

Or Jon might meet her on the battlefield, stab her and voila! Lightbringer is created.

Except how is killing dany a sacrifice to jon. Plus he would then be a queenslayer

Also, that still doesn't help him be a targ. He needs her to legitimise him. Stannis will not legitimise him as a targ and neither would tommen.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Except how is killing dany a sacrifice to jon. Plus he would then be a queenslayer

Now we will disagree. Dany is a queen in Esson not it Westeros so there is not queenslaying. But I agree that Dany's death means nothing to Jon(until now anyway)

[Dany4eva]

Now we will disagree. Dany is a queen in Esson not it Westeros so there is not queenslaying. But I agree that Dany's death means nothing to Jon(until now anyway)

U r right but I'm talking about after dany becomes queen of westeros (if indeed). I assume she will go for the throne first before the wall.

What do u think are jon's possible routes to becoming king?

[FanTasy]

Yes but the fact he kidnapped (that is what we know now) Lyanna and the KG were in ToJ, and all those prophecies (Blue winter roses in the wall etc.) made the R+L=J very clear and obvious.

Interestingly, there are lots of references to winter roses regarding Lyanna and the Starks, but the one who talks about the Wall if I recall it correctly does not say it is a rose, it is a blue flower, which fills the airs with sweetness. This could be a typo, a red herring, or a clue.