Jon Snow is NOT a Targaryen

[Ned's Epic Beard]

Why people keep repeating that Targs practice polygamy? As far as I know, North and Starks do not practice polygamy. And Lyanna was the daughter of the north. How can this marriage commence without the attendance of a any family member?

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Why people keep repeating that Targs practice polygamy? As far as I know, North and Starks do not practice polygamy. And Lyanna was the daughter of the north. How can this marriage commence without the attendance of a any family member?

Maybe because he kidnaped her?

[Arch-MaesterPhilip]

@Jon's Queen Consort

You didn't come across as harsh. I was making a general statement for everyone. I usually post in the form of questions too. The whole Blackfyre thing could cause them to not want to bother with a bastard for sure.

[Scipio Africanus]

Please note I'm just playing Devil's Advocate here, I have no feeling one way or another about this theory. Anyway, because they were told too. Would they question their prince if he said "protect my bastard in my absence."?

If they know Aerys is dead then they must know about Rhaegar too. Why stick around and fight for some bastard not eligable for the throne when you should be worrying for your lives now that your masters are dead? Or to try and hook up with remaining trueblood Targs like Viserys and newborn Dany? We know JonCon skipped town and tried to hook up with remaining Targs.

I suppose they could take their promises very seriously but my view is they were protecting the next in line to the throne and that was Jon.

Maybe because he kidnaped her?

That's Bob Baratheon talking.

No one else in the book is saying such things. Or at least I don't recall other characters being quite so harsh about the situation as Bob puts it.

Well I don't know about Westeros marriage customs but in real life you can get married without family members attending. Now that I think of it were any family members attending when Tyrion married Tysha?

I got the impression Tyrion married her in secret but I'm not certain about this (still on a reread).

Then there's the matter of the bride's choice. She probably didn't want to get married to Bob Baratheon, this is made clear indirectly. There's a good chance she went willingly with Rhaeger and she willingly got married to him.

As for polygamy, Targaryans were the royal family and could do what they want it seemed to me, including polygamy which doesn't seem to happen elsewhere in Westeros.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

Bah, who cares. At this point in his character Jon Snow will be what Jon Snow wants to be, not what anyone else pushes him to be (unless the author devolves his character), proof: refusing the name Stark.

Jon refused the name Stark and Winterfell because he did not want to disgrace Ned's name by turning his back on the Old Gods. If Jon had accepted Stannis' offer he would have had to burn the heart tree at Winterfell and follow Stannis' god. Jon wouldn't accept the name Stark under Stannis' terms, but that does not mean he would has turned his back on being a Stark...quite the contrary.

IMO It's one thing to believe that R+L=J is true and another to believe that Jon was legitimized. The latter being an effort of the R+L=J theory supporters to explain the actions and decision making of both Rhaegar and Lyanna which contradict entirely with their personalities. The biggest argument in favor of Jon being legitimized is the presence of the KG at the TOJ but...

Their personalities are what lead me to believe that they were married.

"The first duty of the Kingsguard was to defend the king from harm or threat. The white knights were sworn to obey the king’s commands as well, to keep his secrets, counsel him when counsel was requested and keep silent when it was not, serve his pleasure and defend his name and honor. Strictly speaking, it was purely the king’s choice whether or not to extend Kingsguard protection to others, even those of royal blood. Some kings thought it right and proper to dispatch Kingsguard to serve and defend their wives and children, siblings, aunts, uncles, and cousins of greater or lesser degree, and occasionally even their lovers, mistresses, and bastards. But others preferred to use household knights and men-at-arms for those purposes, whilst keeping their seven as their own personal guard, never far from their sides"

True, but in situations where members of the Kingsguard are ordered to protect anyone other than the king one member must always remain with the king.

What we learn from this is that the KG do as ordered without questioning the order and that their first duty is with the king.

There are 3 possibilities here : 1. the KG at the TOJ were able to communicate and learn news about the war. In this case they ought to leave the TOJ after the Battle of the Trident and head to KL where their primary duty lies with Aerys especially at such a perilous time. Even if they were at the disposal of Rhaegar to command with Aerys approval, after Rhaegar's death as their vow demands they should go back to Aerys, Aegon, Rhaenys, Rhaella and Elia. The argument about Jaime being there is hilarious. He was but one KG and only 16.

No, Areys had Kingsguard protection, the City Watch, random guards, and the Red Keep itself. As far as they were concerned he was protected.

2. the KG were not able to communicate. Then they wouldn't know about the Sack or Viserys escape to Dragonstone so just followed the last order given to them but this doesn't make Jon legitimate.

According to the conversation with Ned at the ToJ they knew, but still didn't go anywhere.

3. This one I like. The KG were not robots deprived of emotions. They were order by Rhaegar to guard Lyanna and Jon while R was alive and continued after his death. Abandoning a newborn and his sickly mother in the middle of nowhere to chase a lost cause (KL already sacked, most Targs dead) is inhumane and they were honorble men and friends of Rhaegar (Dayne). It woldn'd be the first time that the KG have a mind of their own.

You explained the duty of the Kingsguard at the beginning of your post, so following your own logic at least one of them should have left to protect Viserys.

Not to mention that I still don't get why Rhaegar needed Lyanna. I get that he may loved her but not need her for the PWWP prophecy and the whole Ice and Fire issue. He had Aegon.

Jon significance in the story is interwined with the North and imo is highly unlikely that in the end there will be an Iron Throne for a legit heir to sit on.

He didn't need her, but he obviously wanted her.

Jon being the legitimate son of Rhaegar Targaryren does not mean he will sit the throne or anything of that nature. His story could still end in the North.

The fact that he needed a third child is irrelevant to the fact that he needed a child from Lyanna. He could have made a much safer choice. And also the third head doesn't need to be Rhaegar's child.

As I stated above he didn't need her, but he wanted her.

In Rhaegar's mind, the third head needed to be his child. GRRM only stated that the third head need not be a Targaryren for the purpose of his fans.

Even though I don't support the R+L=J theory I can understand why so many people support it but when it comes to Jon's legitimacy, imo, is based only on fans speculations.

Your unwillingness to accept R+L=J is what blinds you to the evidence laid out to support Jon's legitimacy.

Also the blue rose is associated with Lyanna, no connection with Rhaegar. I tend to believe that Jon is Lyanna's son but not Rhaegar's. Martin gave enough hints imo to approach the truth but not grasp it entirely.

When Rhaegar crowned Lyanna the Queen of Love and Beauty he gave her a crown of Blue Winter Roses.

I don't think that Jon has to be legit for R+L=J. Either out of love or out of need for a third head he could produce a bastard. He had no need of an heir though.

He doesn't, but the evidence points to his legitimacy. Plus, if Rhaegar wanted three heads it would make sense that he would want all three to be his legitimate children, so Jon's legitimacy would have nothing to do with Rhaegar needing an heir. Still, most kings would prefer more than one heir.

The flower is Lyanna's symbol. No mention that it has any significande for Rhaegar prior to Lyanna. If a man offers a woman her favorite flower doesn't mean it's his favorite also.

The flower is their symbol after the tourney at Harrenhall. It is a symbol of his affection for Lyanna.

Do you really believe they were a skirt and a bastard or just use these words to diminish my arguments? :cool4:

So much talk about the one true love, the woman's love that made him risk everything and now she becomes a skirt and the fruit of their love becomes another bastard? You can't have it both ways. If she was important for Rhaegar then she would be important for them too. Additionally, she is a noble high born lady not some tavern wench to abandon her in the middle of nowhere. Plus I don't believe there would be many people and servants otherwise the secret must have come out somehow, unless you are suggesting that Ned murdered them.

True, but Lyanna didn't need all three Kingsguard members to protect her.

Please note I'm just playing Devil's Advocate here, I have no feeling one way or another about this theory. Anyway, because they were told too. Would they question their prince if he said "protect my bastard in my absence."?

No, but they also wouldn't abandon their first duty to the king. At least one of them should have left the ToJ to protect Viserys. Also, once Ned arrived why wouldn't they release Jon to his uncle if he was only a bastard?

[Naathi Prince]

A lot of us think there was a midwife: Wylla. As for not taking her to Sunspear, I doubt the Martells would go along with that for obvious reasons. And the whole point of the Tower of Joy was isolation and secrecy, probably as much from Aerys as from Robert.

Exactly, it is the seat of House Dayne, Rhaegar's allies and this is Lyanna, the woman replacing Elia, so of course they aren't going to take her to sunspear "Hi Prince Martells, here's my new piece I'm replacing your sister with, keep her safe!"

[Naathi Prince]

I don't believe he's a Targaryen either; or I don't want to believe it.

I mean, from the beginning of the whole bloody series we learnt that looks are inherited when crossed with specific families. And then the big mystery reveal in the end will tell us that Jon Snow, who looks so much like his father, with the classic Stark look is a Targaryen! Come on.

"But he had Lyanna for a mother, she looked like a Stark!"

- Well I think it's cheap if the Targaryen features were washed over to completely normal features. (Grey eyes, brown hair) Especially since genes in ASOIAF seem to be magical.

The Targaryen Kings who married into the Martell family had dark hair originally until it was bred out. Besides, Jon looks like Arya who looks like Lyanna.

[pitakon]

wylla didn't exist. wylla is lyanna in disguise.

[Night Gathers]

The Targaryen Kings who married into the Martell family had dark hair originally until it was bred out. Besides, Jon looks like Arya who looks like Lyanna.

Jon doesn't look like Arya, they don't have a resemblance like Jaime and Cersei. They just share the Stark features; dark hair, long face and grey eyes.

[Naathi Prince]

Jon doesn't look like Arya, they don't have a resemblance like Jaime and Cersei. They just share the Stark features; dark hair, long face and grey eyes.

are you serious?

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

Jon doesn't look like Arya, they don't have a resemblance like Jaime and Cersei. They just share the Stark features; dark hair, long face and grey eyes.

The point is...

It is rammed in our heads that Jon and Arya are similar and that Arya and Lyanna are similar.

[Night Gathers]

are you serious?

That doesn't mean they look like each other.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

That doesn't mean they look like each other.

If they share STARK features, which is the point.

Jon and Arya cannot be compared to Jamie and Cersei. Jamie and Cersei are twins.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Jeor's raven calling jon "king" would be too obvious I don't buy it. The Joffrey and Jon scene about the table, what if there's really nothing about it? Nothing to ponder about. Nothing.

Example: an author writes something like "Johnny looked at the window and saw the curtains are blue."

What we think the author is saying: Johnny sees everything with sorrowful eyes, his heart is in pain and he is full of despair.

What the author really meant: The damn curtain is blue.

You know what? If you want to completely disregard the evidence that people are providing, that's up to you. But please do not presume to discard said evidence and then turn around and say that there is no evidence.

[Night Gathers]

If they share STARK features, which is the point.

Jon and Arya cannot be compared to Jamie and Cersei. Jamie and Cersei are twins.

I agree that they share the Stark features.

[dragontamer]

@Lady Tippy Wolfsbane

Would it be so unbelievable that if after the deaths of Rhaegar, Aerys and Aegon, Robert's coronation and the obliteration of almost the entire Targaryen dynasty the KG felt that they had no king to protect so their only duty was to the last order they had from their dead former prince to guard the woman he loved?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Maybe they didn't know the status of the other members of the Kingsgaurd. I doubt they were sending and recieving ravens. As far as they knew Ser Barristan, Ser Jaime, Prince Lewyn Martell and Ser Jonothor were alive and well and with Viserys and the queen mother on Dragonstone. They meanwhile were following the orders of Prince Rhaegar and were staying with his prisoner/mistress/whatever else she may have been. Didn't they only find out that Ser Jaime had killed the Mad King when Ned arrived?

No, they knew exactly what had happened when Ned arrived. Read the dialogue. They knew.

@Lady Tippy Wolfsbane

Would it be so unbelievable that if after the deaths of Rhaegar, Aerys and Aegon, Robert's coronation and the obliteration of almost the entire Targaryen dynasty the KG felt that they had no king to protect so their only duty was to the last order they had from their dead former prince to guard the woman he loved?

They did have a king to protect, if Jon was a bastard — Viserys. So no, this doesn't fly. If Viserys was the king, they'd've gone to him. But they didn't. Why? Because he wasn't the king.

I feel like I've made this argument about 500 times before. I have no idea why it doesn't ever sink in.

[dragontamer]

They did have a king to protect, if Jon was a bastard — Viserys. So no, this doesn't fly. If Viserys was the king, they'd've gone to him. But they didn't. Why? Because he wasn't the king.

I feel like I've made this argument about 500 times before. I have no idea why it doesn't ever sink in.

Maybe because it's not so obvious to many people and you can't accept it.

I think we give too much credit to the KG as an institution. Jaime's view of the KG and the oaths they say I believe it's valid. It won't be the first time the KG do as they think right rather than what their vows dictate them. Sometimes your vows conflicts with personal morality and emotions.

[SFDanny]

But that's the point. No, they wouldn't. They would do whatever their beloved crownprince tells them. Until one of the Kingsguard is guarding the King. They know Jaime is with the King, the other 3 is with Rhaegar.

Then R. dies, so does the KG with him, except for Selmy. But Jaime is still with the King, Aerys, so our 3 KG stay behind and do as they were told.

Rhaella escapes with Viserys (without any KG), but they are not the King, so they stay, because they were told to.

Then Aerys is killed, by Jaime.

So who is guarding the King? It's either nobody (Viserys), so according to their vows at least one of them should have left to find him.

Or their king is right there. That makes Jon legitimate. None of them needs to leave, that's why they stay.

Up to the point when Aerys was killed, the KG could act upon whatever Rhaegar told them. But after Aerys died, the protection of their new king becomes their first priority, even if it goes against Rhaegar's orders.

I agree with most of this, but I have to add something or correct something that keeps getting left out in summing up this idea:

The presence of all three remaining loyal members of the Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy instead of at least one of their members being sent to guard Viserys strongly suggests that the heir is there with them. That heir need not be a legitimate Jon - it could be Aegon. With the publication of A Dance with Dragons, and the open claim of Young Griff to be Rhaegar's son Aegon, switched with another child and secreted away from King's Landing before the Lannister sack of that city, there is another plausible explanation to the actions of the Kingsguard trio's action other than Lyanna and Rhaegar having been married and their child being hidden in the Tower. I don't think it is Aegon, but the reasons for that has nothing to do with the Kingsguard's actions.

[Naathi Prince]

That doesn't mean they look like each other.

you are really grasping here. The books go out of their way to state that Robb, Sansa, Bran, and Rickon look very tully, while Arya and Jon looks similar and very stark with Arya looking like Lyanna.