Jon Snow is NOT a Targaryen

[SkaagosChef]

More I read and re-read, more I believe in R+L=J, especially taking into account Rhaegar's gentle nature and Lyanna's strong will. I doubt that there was rape. If she did give birth it was probably to Jon and he probably is part Targ.... however... I don't belive it will matter in terms of him becoming king. I don't think Jon wants to be the king. I think that he will have a big role to play in fighting Others but my gut feeling is that he will die in that battle. I think he takes himself and his honour and the way he was raised by Ned seriously and will not be playing a game of thrones.

.... that's if he is still alive or revived....

[dragontamer]

No blue rose was what Rhaegar gave her and her room where Rhaegar kept her was full of blue roses. So it's about Rhaegar too.

I didn't said anything about his identity. If he is legitimized (if R+L=J he must be) he is legaly an Targ. Legaly is totally different from psychologically.

I don't think that Jon has to be legit for R+L=J. Either out of love or out of need for a third head he could produce a bastard. He had no need of an heir though.

The flower is Lyanna's symbol. No mention that it has any significande for Rhaegar prior to Lyanna. If a man offers a woman her favorite flower doesn't mean it's his favorite also.

[pitakon]

Rhaegar has a gentle nature???? THAT BEAST KIDNAPPED NED STARK'S SISTER.... I will kill all those animals till the ends of the world. Ooooops I forgot. I'm not Robert.

[Scipio Africanus]

1. the KG at the TOJ were able to communicate and learn news about the war. In this case they ought to leave the TOJ after the Battle of the Trident and head to KL where their primary duty lies with Aerys especially at such a perilous time. Even if they were at the disposal of Rhaegar to command with Aerys approval, after Rhaegar's death as their vow demands they should go back to Aerys, Aegon, Rhaenys, Rhaella and Elia. The argument about Jaime being there is hilarious. He was but one KG and only 16.

2. the KG were not able to communicate. Then they wouldn't know about the Sack or Viserys escape to Dragonstone so just followed the last order given to them but this doesn't make Jon legitimate.

3. This one I like. The KG were not robots deprived of emotions. They were order by Rhaegar to guard Lyanna and Jon while R was alive and continued after his death. Abandoning a newborn and his sickly mother in the middle of nowhere to chase a lost cause (KL already sacked, most Targs dead) is inhumane and they were honorble men and friends of Rhaegar (Dayne). It woldn'd be the first time that the KG have a mind of their own.

Not to mention that I still don't get why Rhaegar needed Lyanna. I get that he may loved her but not need her for the PWWP prophecy and the whole Ice and Fire issue. He had Aegon.

Jon significance in the story is interwined with the North and imo is highly unlikely that in the end there will be an Iron Throne for a legit heir to sit on.

Well at least someone is trying to explain the presence of the KGs at the ToJ.

But I still find it very hard to believe that THREE KGs would stick around for some skirt of Rhaeger's and some baby who may or may not be his. Not just any old KGs either. We're not talking about a 16 years old boy 'talent' Jaime Lannister stuck on some backwater guard duty. We're talking about famous knights (the sword of the morning, white bull). Would they really themselves be content to let their main charge, Crown Prince Rhaeger, to ride off and fight Bob Baratheon while they'd be stuck holding their dicks guarding some skirt and an unknown bastard in the middle of nowhere? You said yourself they might not have been robots.

If you keep someone like Arthur Dayne back, whome you know is one of your best warriors, then you can be certain it must be for a good reason. I doubt Rhaeger would be stupid enough not to take his best men with him to face Bob at the Trident.

Besides, why not take 2 of them and leave 1 behind, if it's only a matter of guarding some skirt and an unknown bastard?

ps I highly doubt Lyanna would've been abandoned if the KGs left, there would've been servants traveling with Rhaeger and the KGs.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Interestingly, there are lots of references to winter roses regarding Lyanna and the Starks, but the one who talks about the Wall if I recall it correctly does not say it is a rose, it is a blue flower, which fills the airs with sweetness. This could be a typo, a red herring, or a clue.

Yes but remember:

Lyanna's room in ToJ smelled sweetness and blood(I thing it was blood)

Lyanna loved the scent of winter roses

So blue roses smell sweet. The prophecy

A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness.

both smell/filled the air with sweetness.

My mistake before it was a blue flower not a blue winter rose, but I have thought of that before and that was what I thought at the end. What is a red herring?

U r right but I'm talking about after dany becomes queen of westeros (if indeed). I assume she will go for the throne first before the wall.

What do u think are jon's possible routes to becoming king?

What you mean by possible routes?

[dragontamer]

Well at least someone is trying to explain the presence of the KGs at the ToJ.

But I still find it very hard to believe that THREE KGs would stick around for some skirt of Rhaeger's and some baby who may or may not be his. Not just any old KGs either. We're not talking about a 16 years old boy 'talent' Jaime Lannister stuck on some backwater guard duty. We're talking about famous knights (the sword of the morning, white bull). Would they really themselves be content to let their main charge, Crown Prince Rhaeger, to ride off and fight Bob Baratheon while they'd be stuck holding their dicks guarding some skirt and an unknown bastard in the middle of nowhere? You said yourself they might not have been robots.

If you keep someone like Arthur Dayne back, whome you know is one of your best warriors, then you can be certain it must be for a good reason. I doubt Rhaeger would be stupid enough not to take his best men with him to face Bob at the Trident.

Besides, why not take 2 of them and leave 1 behind, if it's only a matter of guarding some skirt and an unknown bastard?

ps I highly doubt Lyanna would've been abandoned if the KGs left, there would've been servants traveling with Rhaeger and the KGs.

Do you really believe they were a skirt and a bastard or just use these words to diminish my arguments? :cool4:

So much talk about the one true love, the woman's love that made him risk everything and now she becomes a skirt and the fruit of their love becomes another bastard? You can't have it both ways. If she was important for Rhaegar then she would be important for them too. Additionally, she is a noble high born lady not some tavern wench to abandon her in the middle of nowhere. Plus I don't believe there would be many people and servants otherwise the secret must have come out somehow, unless you are suggesting that Ned murdered them.

[FanTasy]

Blue roses smell sweet.

(snip)

What is a red herring?

Yep. It is very probable that what was meant was a rose.

(Although ... there interestingly is a plant with blue flowers that is called the "Fire and Ice'-plant. It is thorny and used as a hedge, to keep animals from getting where you don't want them ... as could be the intention for raising the Wall, said to be raised to keep 'non-humans' from getting where they were not wanted. The Fire and Ice-plant is not a rose, it is a nightshade - solanum)

From Wikipedia: A red herring, according to the Oxford English Dictionary is a clue which is intentionally or unintentionally misleading or distracting from the actual issue. The term is mostly used to claim that the argument of another person is not relevant to the issue being discussed. In mystery fiction, a clue or lead that turns out not to be relevant to the solution of the mystery would also be a red herring.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I don't think that Jon has to be legit for R+L=J. Either out of love or out of need for a third head he could produce a bastard. He had no need of an heir though.

The flower is Lyanna's symbol. No mention that it has any significande for Rhaegar prior to Lyanna. If a man offers a woman her favorite flower doesn't mean it's his favorite also.

And made the whole situation worse? Then why if it wasn't a legit heir KG was at the ToJ?

The Tourney at Harrenhal was held at 281

Lyanna died in 283 and Jon born in 283

From 281-283 Lyanna was held by Rhaegar so it's rather difficilt for her to have a son by another man

also: both Bael the Bard and Rhaegar kidnapped a Stark. Bael had a son and Rhaegar too. Bael left the rose on lady's place.

Rhaegar has a gentle nature???? THAT BEAST KIDNAPPED NED STARK'S SISTER.... I will kill all those animals till the ends of the world. Ooooops I forgot. I'm not Robert.

:agree: truth must be told

[FanTasy]

From 281-283 Lyanna was held by Rhaegar so it's rather difficilt for her to have a son by another man

also: both Bael the Bard and Rhaegar kidnapped a Stark. Bael had a son and Rhaegar too. Bael left the rose on lady's place.

There is no evidence for that she was held by Rhaegar, Nor that she was kidnapped and did not go willingly. (ETA) Robert says she was kidnapped and raped, Ned never says this.

The Stark daughter that got Bael's child was not kidnapped and taken away, she never left Winterfell, she hid in the crypts.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Yep. It is very probable that what was meant was a rose.

(Although ... there interestingly is a plant with blue flowers that is called the "Fire and Ice'-plant. It is thorny and used as a hedge, to keep animals from getting where you don't want them ... as could be the intention for raising the Wall, said to be raised to keep 'non-humans' from getting where they were not wanted. The Fire and Ice-plant is not a rose, it is a nightshade - solanum)

From Wikipedia: A red herring, according to the Oxford English Dictionary is a clue which is intentionally or unintentionally misleading or distracting from the actual issue. The term is mostly used to claim that the argument of another person is not relevant to the issue being discussed. In mystery fiction, a clue or lead that turns out not to be relevant to the solution of the mystery would also be a red herring.

I didn't knew about tha plant. But I still like what I have said I really like R+L=J :drunk:

Thank you for the red herring. I had no idea.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

There is no evidence for that she was held by Rhaegar, Nor that she was kidnapped and did not go willingly. (ETA) Robert says she was kidnapped and raped, Ned never says this.

The Stark daughter that got Bael's child was not kidnapped and taken away, she never left Winterfell, she hid in the crypts.

If she wasn't with Rhaegar then why she has with him?

Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna (that’s what we know right now, we here maybe have other theories but until GRRM clearly states otherwise the kidnapping is the truth for now).

I just point at the similarities with Rhaegar's story.

[FanTasy]

I didn't knew about tha plant. But I still like what I have said I really like R+L=J :drunk:

I just stumbled over it, when checking if there was a rose called Fire and Ice. There is, but it is red and white.

I think R+L=J has to be true, considering all the clues. But I hope it isn't (a bit too obvious and a wee tacky) and if it is true I think it will not be important for the endgame.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I just stumbled over it, when checking if there was a rose called Fire and Ice. There is, but it is red and white.

I think R+L=J has to be true, considering all the clues. But I hope it isn't (a bit too obvious and a wee tacky) and if it is true I think it will not be important for the endgame.

Blasphemy! :tantrum:

I think that eventually Jon will be at the Throne but not because his birthright etc but because he saved the realm (not conquer, save)

[Dr. Pepper]

And people always make remarks on how silly it is to have v. 30 of the R+L=J thread.....this is the exact reason why. The thread is a catch-all for any questions concerning Jon's legitimacy, his burned hand, his brown hair and grey eyes, his bastard last name, what happened at the TOJ and how Lyanna really ended up with Rhaegar down south. Seriously, that thread pinned at the top of the page is where this should have gone. And any questions are answered quite quickly and forumers are really very nice and patient about explaining these sorts of things even when they are on the 2000th explanation. Just beware of asking about burned hands and illnesses or your like to cause liver disease in one special poster.

[dragontamer]

And made the whole situation worse? Then why if it wasn't a legit heir KG was at the ToJ?

The Tourney at Harrenhal was held at 281

Lyanna died in 283 and Jon born in 283

From 281-283 Lyanna was held by Rhaegar so it's rather difficilt for her to have a son by another man

also: both Bael the Bard and Rhaegar kidnapped a Stark. Bael had a son and Rhaegar too. Bael left the rose on lady's place

Rhaegar left with Lyanna in 282.

Bael was of the North plus the rose symbolized the Stark girl in this case also. He left it in her place.

[EgoistMusketeer]

Has anyone yelled about Blackfyre's only being Damon's offspring not just any bastard Targaryen yet?!

see - Damon Blackfyre, Aegor Rivers, Brynden Rivers, etc.

Im sure its already been addressed but it saddened me.

[The Snowman]

I have just thread this entire thread and to be honest it lost most of its traction when Apple left.

@dragontamer and the OP

You do not leave Lord Commander Gerald Hightower "The White Bull" and Ser Arthur Dayne "The Sword of the Morning"(and one of Rhaegar's best friend's by most accounts) to guard your mistress while you go off to war even if she happens to be pregnant and the daughter of a noble house. If she's just carrying a bastard then she doesn't garner any interest from the KG. You send her to KL or to Highgarden if Starfall and SunSpear aren't options. Dany see's a blue flower coming from a wall of ice and she smelt the sweetness as well (TOJ reference) and who is at a big wall of ice? Jon Snow might be connected (sorry for the sarcasm)

In my mind Jon Snow is the son of Rhaegar Targaryen & Lyanna Stark and I believe they would have married(targs and polygamy have precedence) however that doesn't make him the soon to be King or the rags to riches fantasy cliche. He does however happen to be in a position (once he stops getting stabbed :P) to lead an army to help liberate the North from the Bolton/Freys. He happens to be the only 'child' of Eddard Stark who is not KIA or MIA left in the eyes of the majority of those in westeros. So whatever, I think the evidence of Eddard's thought's and the events of the TOJ along with a few odd comments from Jeor's raven (bloodraven cough cough) is enough to say that R+L=J is for real but it doesn't automatically mean that Jon is going to be King of the 7 kingdoms and I think that's where a lot of the arguments concerning Jon arise.

If I have rambled my apologies, I'm just telling it how I see it.

[Scipio Africanus]

Do you really believe they were a skirt and a bastard or just use these words to diminish my arguments? :cool4:

So much talk about the one true love, the woman's love that made him risk everything and now she becomes a skirt and the fruit of their love becomes another bastard? You can't have it both ways. If she was important for Rhaegar then she would be important for them too. Additionally, she is a noble high born lady not some tavern wench to abandon her in the middle of nowhere. Plus I don't believe there would be many people and servants otherwise the secret must have come out somehow, unless you are suggesting that Ned murdered them.

No I don't believe that nor was it meant insulting towards you but to the arguement that three of Rhaeger's best warriors would stay behind for the sole reason that Lyanna was Rhaeger's pregnant mistress (who may or may not be carrying Rhaeger's child) and Rhaeger was a bit worried about her.

You don't keep guys like Gerald Hightower and Arthur Dayne on backwater guard duty during the war, I find that very hard to believe. Not for a mere mistress and a bastard. Therer would've been other means to deal with Lyanna if she wasn't that important strategically. And, as you mentioned, they weren't robots - they probably would want to accompany Rhaeger against Bob Baratheon.

I also don't believe Crown Prince Rhaeger and three KGs came without servants. There may not have been many servants present, that is true.

Why they don't appear in the story is anybody's guess. We don't even know how Arthur Dayne died, or any details of that battle other then only Eddard Stark, Howland Reed walked away alive. We don't even know why the KGs resisted in the first place. As for the servants, it could either be because the servants were killed, had fled, or had been silenced through other means.

No my friend Arthur Dayne and Gerald Hightower were left behind to guard at least one royal family member, I'm still pretty convinced on that.

I don't understand why it would be such a disaster if Jon was a Targ bastard anyway, a king can legitimize bastards and Rhaeger could've simply legitimized Jon without marrying Lyanna Stark.

[Jayce]

I don't understand why it would be such a disaster if Jon was a Targ bastard anyway, a king can legitimize bastards and Rhaeger could've simply legitimized Jon without marrying Lyanna Stark.

If Jon was a bastard I don't believe the 3 KGs would of stayed longer then to see that Lyanna was cared for (midwife, servants, etc).

[Scipio Africanus]

If Jon was a bastard I don't believe the 3 KGs would of stayed longer then to see that Lyanna was cared for (midwife, servants, etc).

That's my thought as well. I'm refering to the part where Lyanna may or may not have married Rhaeger. It wouldn't matter, as Rhaeger would've legitimized Jon anyway regardless.

At any rate Rhaeger highly likely recognized Jon and asked three KGs to protect him.