Ned's fatal flaw revisited

[Currawong]

I would not call it a flaw. We see from the start that Eddard is not a fan of the Lannisters (Jaime and Tywin) and has voiced his concerns to Robert early in agot. I have some issues as to how Eddard thought the incest accusations would play out (we, the reader kind of know that the children are not Roberts, but without dna, or witnesses, it is heresay).

Eddard seems to think he has 'proof' of the Queens treason (incest, children not the kings)... but he has no witnesses, his proof is the hair color of the children (this claim will make lots of children, mothers nervious).

I think the 'flaw' is his thinking is that Cersei will flee. Why should she (and Jaime) flee??

I think you have put your finger on the key issue - Ned simply didn't think! Or rather, he didn't take the time to think things through properly, work out all the likely scenarios and plan what he could / should do, before he said anything to anyone. It wouldn't have taken very much thought to realise that tackling the Lannisters without proof would not be easy. So the kids look like their mother rather than their father? So what? Plenty of offspring take after one parent, and merely bringing up past examples isn't going to prove anything. All Tywin has to do is look down his nose and say that perhaps Lannister blood is now a little stronger than suspected! Unless Cersei and Jaime admit the incest, it's just Ned's word against the Lannisters - and even Ned should have seen the dangers in that!!

Should Ned have trusted Robert? Maybe - but I tend to agree that the Robert we see in AGOT is not the same Robert that had been Ned's best friend years before. There were many risks in saying anything to Robert, and the situation was complicated by the fact that Robert disliked Stannis, even though Stannis was the rightful heir if the children weren't Robert's. It was a very nastysituation, but it would have been a lot smarter for Ned to think things through carefully and make sure of his own support before saying anything. And while it is fine for Ned to accept the possibility of his own death because he was being honorable as he saw it, he should at least have made sure of his children's safety before opening his mouth at all. THAT was the really stupid thing he did.

[Elder Sister]

I think you have put your finger on the key issue - Ned simply didn't think! Or rather, he didn't take the time to think things through properly, work out all the likely scenarios and plan what he could / should do, before he said anything to anyone. It wouldn't have taken very much thought to realise that tackling the Lannisters without proof would not be easy. So the kids look like their mother rather than their father? So what? Plenty of offspring take after one parent, and merely bringing up past examples isn't going to prove anything. All Tywin has to do is look down his nose and say that perhaps Lannister blood is now a little stronger than suspected! Unless Cersei and Jaime admit the incest, it's just Ned's word against the Lannisters - and even Ned should have seen the dangers in that!!

Should Ned have trusted Robert? Maybe - but I tend to agree that the Robert we see in AGOT is not the same Robert that had been Ned's best friend years before. There were many risks in saying anything to Robert, and the situation was complicated by the fact that Robert disliked Stannis, even though Stannis was the rightful heir if the children weren't Robert's. It was a very nastysituation, but it would have been a lot smarter for Ned to think things through carefully and make sure of his own support before saying anything. And while it is fine for Ned to accept the possibility of his own death because he was being honorable as he saw it, he should at least have made sure of his children's safety before opening his mouth at all. THAT was the really stupid thing he did.

How exactly was it stupid? Remember; at the time Ned speaks with Cersei, Robert Baratheon is very much alive and well. Ned's plan would have worked out perfectly had Robert lived. Was it short-sighted for him not to have foreseen that Cersei would murder Robert? I guess you could argue that, but it's a stretch.

[LordBloodraven]

I think you have put your finger on the key issue - Ned simply didn't think! Or rather, he didn't take the time to think things through properly, work out all the likely scenarios and plan what he could / should do, before he said anything to anyone. It wouldn't have taken very much thought to realise that tackling the Lannisters without proof would not be easy. So the kids look like their mother rather than their father? So what? Plenty of offspring take after one parent, and merely bringing up past examples isn't going to prove anything. All Tywin has to do is look down his nose and say that perhaps Lannister blood is now a little stronger than suspected! Unless Cersei and Jaime admit the incest, it's just Ned's word against the Lannisters - and even Ned should have seen the dangers in that!!

Should Ned have trusted Robert? Maybe - but I tend to agree that the Robert we see in AGOT is not the same Robert that had been Ned's best friend years before. There were many risks in saying anything to Robert, and the situation was complicated by the fact that Robert disliked Stannis, even though Stannis was the rightful heir if the children weren't Robert's. It was a very nastysituation, but it would have been a lot smarter for Ned to think things through carefully and make sure of his own support before saying anything. And while it is fine for Ned to accept the possibility of his own death because he was being honorable as he saw it, he should at least have made sure of his children's safety before opening his mouth at all. THAT was the really stupid thing he did.

When Ned went to the godswood to talk with Cersei, his children were as safe as they could be. A ship was booked to send them home the next morning. And Robert Baratheon was alive and well while he, was, Hand of the King, and ruling King's Landing and the Seven Kingdoms. People tend to overlook that because of the insight bias they have. Janos's and Littlefinger's betrayal weren't predictable since Robert Baratheon was very much alive

[Lonin]

How exactly was it stupid? Remember; at the time Ned speaks with Cersei, Robert Baratheon is very much alive and well. Ned's plan would have worked out perfectly had Robert lived. Was it short-sighted for him not to have foreseen that Cersei would murder Robert? I guess you could argue that, but it's a stretch.

Given that Robert stays alive, what is Ned's plan?

To accuse Cersei/Jaime of treason?? - that results in a trial. Cersei (and the kids) just cant be killed (they are well guarded)... I dont think Robert just kills them because they have their mothers hair color....It becomes Ned's word against Cersei's - IMO, its going to result in a trial, which gives the option of Trial by Combat... I think Cersei and Jaime win any trial by combat scenario.

of course, GRRM picked this scenario to move his story along - and I do find the story VERY interesting :drunk:

[Currawong]

No, I am not speaking with the benefit of hindsight. Ned knew what the Lannisters were like, even if he didn't know that Cersei planned on killing Robert right then. He knew the court was 'dangerous' and was getting worse. Surely even Ned should have known that his children weren't "as safe as they could be" at all because they were still in Kings Landing! The only time those kids could have been considered 'safe' was when they were on board that ship and well out of harbour on their way north - he should have bundled them up and sent them down to the ship that night, with instructions to sail at first light.

Ned should not have said or done anything at all until Sansa and Arya were safely out of the way. Least of all talk to Cersei! By all means risk his own life, but not his kids. Which was exactly what he did because he didn't think.

[The Fallen]

No, I am not speaking with the benefit of hindsight. Ned knew what the Lannisters were like, even if he didn't know that Cersei planned on killing Robert right then. He knew the court was 'dangerous' and was getting worse. Surely even Ned should have known that his children weren't "as safe as they could be" at all because they were still in Kings Landing! The only time those kids could have been considered 'safe' was when they were on board that ship and well out of harbour on their way north - he should have bundled them up and sent them down to the ship that night, with instructions to sail at first light.

Ned should not have said or done anything at all until Sansa and Arya were safely out of the way. Least of all talk to Cersei! By all means risk his own life, but not his kids. Which was exactly what he did because he didn't think.

The only reason they weren't on that ship was because someone, *cough* Sansa, gave up the info. Otherwise, when Cersei goes to look for them, surprise!, they're not there.

[Tenshi]

Lannister had killed Arryn, tried to kill his son twice, murdered Hugh of the Vale, had dared attack him, the hand of the king, in public, killed his guardsmen, had sent Gregor on a murder and rape campaign... I dare say, he had reason to believe an attempt at Robert's life was becoming increasingly likely. And if you're dealing with someone widely known as Kingslayer... should you then take any chances at all?

[Currawong]

The only reason they weren't on that ship was because someone, *cough* Sansa, gave up the info. Otherwise, when Cersei goes to look for them, surprise!, they're not there.

As I have already posted, Ned didn't even THINK that Sansa might possibly go and say good-bye. You know, to her future mother in law, the current queen. Or even to her betrothed? Her parents had brought her up to be polite and courteous, after all - and if you've been staying with someone, you don't just walk out on them without saying good bye. :) Or at least, normally courteous people don't!

Ned knew that there were eyes everywhere in KL. Cersei could have got wind of their proposed departure from anyone. Once Ned realised that he had to get his daughters away for their own safety, then he should have kept them under guard with instructions not to say anything to anyone, packed them up than and there, given them no chance to say anything to any one, and got them on board that ship. Ned simply didn't think things through or consider all the implications. How much more obvious did things have to be? He had seen Cersei-the-ruthless-and-vindictive in action in the Lady incident, yet he still naively under-estimated how fast Cersei could or would act if there was any hint of someone endangering her power, or her children. If you are dealing with someone like Cersei, you don't give them even the faintest sniff of a chance - which Ned should have realised.

[The Fallen]

As I have already posted, Ned didn't even THINK that Sansa might possibly go and say good-bye. You know, to her future mother in law, the current queen. Or even to her betrothed? Her parents had brought her up to be polite and courteous, after all - and if you've been staying with someone, you don't just walk out on them without saying good bye. :) Or at least, normally courteous people don't!

Ned knew that there were eyes everywhere in KL. Cersei could have got wind of their proposed departure from anyone. Once Ned realised that he had to get his daughters away for their own safety, then he should have kept them under guard with instructions not to say anything to anyone, packed them up than and there, given them no chance to say anything to any one, and got them on board that ship. Ned simply didn't think things through or consider all the implications. How much more obvious did things have to be? He had seen Cersei-the-ruthless-and-vindictive in action in the Lady incident, yet he still naively under-estimated how fast Cersei could or would act if there was any hint of someone endangering her power, or her children. If you are dealing with someone like Cersei, you don't give them even the faintest sniff of a chance - which Ned should have realised.

He forbade them to talk to anyone because it was too dangerous. If Sansa's feelings are hurt, too bad. What's more important, their safety or their feelings? He even hinted to Sansa that Joffrey wasn't who she thought he was and he would find someone better. Sansa should've known Joffrey was no true prince and a craven to boot after he tried to hit Arya and then lied about the incident once they got back.

I won't argue the timeline of Ned getting the girls out of KL. I personally think that if Sansa had not disclosed his plans they would've left King's Landing before anything went down. Remember, Robert had not yet died and Ned was the Hand, which essentially made him King. Cersei would not have had the authority to stop them from boarding a ship even if she was notified.

[Elder Sister]

The argument that Ned's accusations would have resulted in a trial doesn't make sense. Ned knew Robert. He knew Robert had a wicked temper and would be livid upon learning about the incest. Robert would have had Cersei, Jaime, and most probably the children, executed without a minute's hesitation. He is king: He can do what he pleases. And Robert was not the type to order a trial. He could also be quite bloodthirsty.

The argument that Ned should have, would have, could have is strictly made with the benefit of hindsight. We as readers are given the full picture, and we also know details that Ned could not possibly have known. Of course, knowing what we know, Ned would have acted differently. But given the information he had, his actions at the time seemed reasonable and just.

[Elder Sister]

Lannister had killed Arryn, tried to kill his son twice, murdered Hugh of the Vale, had dared attack him, the hand of the king, in public, killed his guardsmen, had sent Gregor on a murder and rape campaign... I dare say, he had reason to believe an attempt at Robert's life was becoming increasingly likely. And if you're dealing with someone widely known as Kingslayer... should you then take any chances at all?

At the time Ned tells Cersei he knows about the legitimacy issues with her children, he doesn't know (and we still don't really know)that Ser Hugh was murdered. Ser Gregor and his behavior was frowned upon, but obviously happened fairly regularly and no one bothered to try and curtail it.

My point is, Westeros is a much more violent, bloody place than we as modern readers are used to. There was no 'tell' that Ned could have read from events or happenings that would have told him a. Robert would be killed. b. Sansa would be imprisoned. c. He would be executed.

[Tenshi]

At the time Ned tells Cersei he knows about the legitimacy issues with her children, he doesn't know (and we still don't really know)that Ser Hugh was murdered. Ser Gregor and his behavior was frowned upon, but obviously happened fairly regularly and no one bothered to try and curtail it.

My point is, Westeros is a much more violent, bloody place than we as modern readers are used to. There was no 'tell' that Ned could have read from events or happenings that would have told him a. Robert would be killed. b. Sansa would be imprisoned. c. He would be executed.

Jousting incidents happen. Seeing your prime suspect killed in one just as you start inquiring... then you know. Of course the elephant in the room is: he would have known incorrectly. But as far as we see, Ned didn't suspect it was all a setup. So for him that conclusion would be rather obvious, even if Varys hadn't told him.

Jaime's assault on him should have said enough: we're deadly serious. Last warning. And seeing how he arranged for his daughters to leave, he knew he and they weren't safe (he himself had a ward, he knew they wouldn't just get mercy). Yet he didn't wait until they were gone. And in his eventual acts, he let mercy (for women and children) and honor get in the way of his duty to the realm and the king.

Could he a) have known that Robert would be killed? Ned strikes me as one who wouldn't believe someone would murder a king. However, the accused was the one person who had done that before. Kingslayer.. Ned was the person who found Jaime sitting on the throne. To think it would never happen, would simply be in denial.

Which may well fit Ned. He's an honorable man. He instinctively expects others to be honorable as well... and was very much wrong about that. He could have used his own advice:

"And even the lie was . . . not without honor."

[The Fallen]

The argument that Ned's accusations would have resulted in a trial doesn't make sense. Ned knew Robert. He knew Robert had a wicked temper and would be livid upon learning about the incest. Robert would have had Cersei, Jaime, and most probably the children, executed without a minute's hesitation. He is king: He can do what he pleases. And Robert was not the type to order a trial. He could also be quite bloodthirsty.

The argument that Ned should have, would have, could have is strictly made with the benefit of hindsight. We as readers are given the full picture, and we also know details that Ned could not possibly have known. Of course, knowing what we know, Ned would have acted differently. But given the information he had, his actions at the time seemed reasonable and just.

Also, incest is viewed as horrific and abominable. Both the old Gods and the Seven abhor it. I can't see Cersei and Jaime getting trials for incest.

[Elder Sister]

Also, incest is viewed as horrific and abominable. Both the old Gods and the Seven abhor it. I can't see Cersei and Jaime getting trials for incest.

Me either. I see them getting their heads lopped off by a very angry Robert.

[Lonin]

Also, incest is viewed as horrific and abominable. Both the old Gods and the Seven abhor it. I can't see Cersei and Jaime getting trials for incest.

Westeros has just finished 300 years of Targaryen rule, where brother married sister, where the previous king and Queen were brother and sister. I dont think its as frowned upon as claimed.

Tyrion is accused of trying to kill Bran - gets a trial.

Ned is accused of treason - gets a trial.

Tyrion is accused of kingslaying/kinslaying - gets a trial.

Sandor is accused of murdering people - gets a trial.

Cersei is accused of treason, etc - gets a trial.

Margaery is accused of treason,etc - gets a trial.

The story has abundant cases of people doing very bad things and getting a trial.

The evidence against Cersei is the color of her childrens hair. Surely, Robert B has noticed this by now.

Robert's bad temper? Cersei has lived with him for the past 14-15 years, of all people she has better insight into his temper, than us or Ned - she does not seem worried enough to flee.

I think a trial was more likely than Robert B just killing them all.

[The Fallen]

If incest is no big deal then why hide it? Also, Cersei wasn't worried because she was having Robert killed during his hunt.

[LordBloodraven]

As I have already posted, Ned didn't even THINK that Sansa might possibly go and say good-bye. You know, to her future mother in law, the current queen. Or even to her betrothed? Her parents had brought her up to be polite and courteous, after all - and if you've been staying with someone, you don't just walk out on them without saying good bye. :) Or at least, normally courteous people don't!

Ned knew that there were eyes everywhere in KL. Cersei could have got wind of their proposed departure from anyone. Once Ned realised that he had to get his daughters away for their own safety, then he should have kept them under guard with instructions not to say anything to anyone, packed them up than and there, given them no chance to say anything to any one, and got them on board that ship. Ned simply didn't think things through or consider all the implications. How much more obvious did things have to be? He had seen Cersei-the-ruthless-and-vindictive in action in the Lady incident, yet he still naively under-estimated how fast Cersei could or would act if there was any hint of someone endangering her power, or her children. If you are dealing with someone like Cersei, you don't give them even the faintest sniff of a chance - which Ned should have realised.

You are really unfair to Ned. Don't talk with anyone, tomorrow you get the fuck out of there. How could you predict with that, that Sansa would go to Cersei so as to stay in KL?

[y ddraig]

Ned was convinced Robert would have killed Cersei and her children, and I see no reason not to take his word for it. No one knew Robert better than Ned. And even if he wouldn't have lost sleep over Cersei, Jaime, and possible Joffrey, that leaves Myrcella and Tommen. If you honestly think Ned could have, however marginally, participated in their deaths, you don't understand the character at all. Seriously.

The only decision I can genuinely blame him for is going to King's Lading in the first place. I understand it; Jon Arryn being murdered, Robert being potentially in danger etc. But it's not that easy. He had duties to the North and Winterfell, and he should have asked himself what he could realistically have expected to achieve. He removed himself from southron politics 15 years before, I'd say that ship had sailed. He had no men of his own in KL, he had nobody on the council when he probably should have. The South was not his responsibility, the North was. His decision, 15 years ago. He should have stuck with it.

And, to be honest, I blame him quite a lot for that decision. He wouldn't, for a second, think Tywin Lannister could rule the North, what makes him think he would do better in the South? It's all good and noble to want to redeem your oldest friend, but if you're responsible for half the bloody continent, half the bloody continent should be your top priority.

And it's not that I don't love the Ned. I'm STILL frustrated with him precisely because I love him. I don't waste half as much time wondering what, say, Tywin could have done differently. ;)

[Winterfell is Burning]

Westeros has just finished 300 years of Targaryen rule, where brother married sister, where the previous king and Queen were brother and sister. I dont think its as frowned upon as claimed.

Tyrion is accused of trying to kill Bran - gets a trial.

A farce, and only because he demanded it and Lysa, well, is mad, I have no idea what she was thinking.

Ned is accused of treason - gets a trial.

Seriously?

Tyrion is accused of kingslaying/kinslaying - gets a trial.

Sandor is accused of murdering people - gets a trial.

The Brotherhood obviously isn't like most organizations or institutions.

I think a trial was more likely than Robert B just killing them all.

Ned doesn't think so, and he knows Robert better.

[Currawong]

You are really unfair to Ned. Don't talk with anyone, tomorrow you get the fuck out of there. How could you predict with that, that Sansa would go to Cersei so as to stay in KL?

*sigh* I have already explained that. If Ned was so completely worried about his kids that he made immediate preparations for them to leave KL, then he should have slapped guards on their doors and said: "The kids stay in here, they do not go out for anything or anyone." Surely he had some guards on the doors anyway?! Perfectly easy to give the guards orders that the kids stay safe inside - if it was too dangerous to be in KL at all, then surely it was too dangerous for his daughters to be wandering alone anywhere around the palace. Basic common sense. As far as I can see, looking at things quite objectively from what Ned actually knew, and what he as Hand should have known about the Lannisters generally, there were red warning lights flashing and he was too brain-dead to see them or take any notice.