Hooded Man in winterfell part 3

[Night Gathers]

I believe it's not someone Theon knew, or had previously met, since their eyes met and he didn't recognize the man.

[Ser Elvin of Clymer]

I believe it's not someone Theon knew, or had previously met, since their eyes met and he didn't recognize the man.

I think he did, based on him showing his finger stumps (which he typically hides from people, cowers to being touched etc.) random threatening stranger? person Theon believes dead? (unthreatening) or a unexpected face from the past/creating that surreal vibe. Theon definitely wonders if that is the killer after.

HM does recognize Theon, which some attribute to Theon wearing Greyjoy heraldry at the wedding,

but he also expresses surprise at Theon being alive, meaning he is not someone who has been hanging around Winterfell for the past few months or he would know Theon is alive (at least not to joke w/ him in this manner)

- its more like someone he hasn't seen in awhile - you still live? Stump flash - I leave you to Ramsay then.

The descriptions (in the passage) are atypically vague and Theon seems to be not totally functional (helping create the Theon sees himself/Fight Club perspective)

[FittleLinger]

The descriptions (in the passage) are atypically vague and Theon seems to be not totally functional (helping create the Theon sees himself/Fight Club perspective)

Which I regard as both a red herring, and untypical for Martin.

[tiagombp]

#2) Its a black hood on a black cloak of the Night's Watch. Its Benjen Stark.

I don't think so, I think Benjen is north of the Wall -- I think he is Coldhands ("Your monster, Brandon Stark").

[Jon Reborn]

#2) Its a black hood on a black cloak of the Night's Watch. Its Benjen Stark.

This could also support Thorne as the Hooded man.

ETA

@ Night Gathers:

"I believe it's not someone Theon knew, or had previously met, since their eyes met and he didn't recognize the man."

I don't think Theon would recognize Thorne either.

@ tiagombp:

I'm pretty sure Coldhands is not Benjen. Leaf states that Coldhands has been dead a long time. Given that she is 200 years old or more, I don't think Benjen qualifies.

Also, to everyone:

Am I the only one who remembers a So Spake Martin from a long time ago where he outright stated that Coldhands was not Benjen? Curious if this is true or just in my head...:)

[MtnLion]

Also, to everyone:

Am I the only one who remembers a So Spake Martin from a long time ago where he outright stated that Coldhands was not Benjen? Curious if this is true or just in my head... :)

I have the little nudge in my mind, too, but I have not been able to find the SSM. :(

[Mulled Wino]

I just saw an interesting fact on the ice and fire wiki about Brynden Rivers aka Bloodraven :

"Because his skin was sensitive to light, he usually went about cloaked and hooded."

I am aware this is obviously a trait about him while he was still "alive", but I thought it was interesting. He must have an interest in Winterfell if he has such an interest in Bran (heir to winterfell with Robb dead, although Robb's "will" might state otherwise) So maybe BR warged into someone to infiltrate Winterfell. And since he always went around hooded when he was alive, maybe its just a habit of his or some kind of clever foreshadowing on GRRM's part

The Hooded Man is so mysterious and we don't have many clues about him, but BR would know about Theon and much more... I thought it was interesting..

A lot of people go around hooded and cloaked in a massive snowstorm

[Black Wolf Smith]

I don't think so, I think Benjen is north of the Wall -- I think he is Coldhands ("Your monster, Brandon Stark").

Welcome tiagombp,

please search threads for theories on Cold Hands, he is not Benjen, Bran would have known his uncle, even with his face covered. CotF someone who has lived 100's of years told him cold hands died long ago. Most on here think CH is the Nights King, some even think that its Brandon Stark the Night King.

[Longspear Ryk]

He has to be someone who wasnt supposed to be there which is why he grabbed his dagger when thein locked eyes with him

Also hes probably a stark supporter for him to recgonize theon... Esspecially after the torturing

[Jon Reborn]

He has to be someone who wasnt supposed to be there which is why he grabbed his dagger when thein locked eyes with him

Also hes probably a stark supporter for him to recgonize theon... Esspecially after the torturing

I agree with the first part of what you say Longspear Ryk, but I don't necessarily think he has to be a Stark supporter. He could of heard about how Theon looked. Reek was paraded out in front of some northern lords.

[Le Rouge]

The Hooded Man always reminds me of the "Alchemist" we meet in the Prologue of aFfC, when Pate he collects his gold coin.

The Alcemist wore hooded traveler's cloak, brown and nondescript.

But obviously, the "Alcemist" is Jaqen H'ghar and remains at the Citadel with the face of Pate. Could he make it the long way up to Winterfell? And if he did, what was he looking for? Something in the cripts? Also, the murder of one Walder Frey has to do something with coins...

Hm, all put together it seems quite unlikely, that the Hooder Man is Jaqen.

[TheeMikeHoncho]

I don't think the hooded man wanted to see Theon's fingers. Theon just showed them hoping he wouldn't get shanked by the hooded man, or something along those lines.

No love for Thorne as the hooded man? I thought MtnLion got it. Thorne knows exactly how to get under Jon's skin. This is seen when he provokes Jon to the degree that Jon attacks him in the mess hall.

He even warns Jon that he'll be back when Jon sends him on the ranging. I believe Mel told Jon that all the rangers sent out would die. Thorne is not a ranger, but likely killed the two he was with, then snuck back and got south of the Wall. Thorne and Marsh have cronies at the Wall - one of which could have easily let him back through at some point.

I believe Clydas was a plotter with Thorne and Marsh.

So:

Thorne leaves on the ranging, kills the two with him while they sleep.

He heads back to the Wall and one of his cronies lets him through.

Nobody expects any of the rangers to return so Thorne has lots of time on his hands.

He could have even been hanging around, getting reports from Marsh and the other conspirators about the latest stuff that Jon ("the bastard") has been doing to "ruin" the Watch.

Thorne and Marsh have likely been in communication with the new Lannister backed Warden of the North (via Clydas and the ravens) an know the Lannisters/Boltons don't like Jon as Lord Commander. The time seems ripe, with Jon letting the wildlings through the wall.

Thorne heads down to Winterfell to discuss plans in person with Roose and/or Ramsey for removing Ned Stark's "last remaining son".

Thorne knows who is at the wall (Selyse, Shireen, Val, Mel), knows about Stannis' sword, would recognize Mance, and loves to call Jon bastard and get under his skin.

Thorne and Ramsey collaborate on the Pink Letter. A really perfectly designed document to get under Jon's skin.

Maybe they send 2 letters via raven. One with instructions for Marsh et al. to be ready, the other being the Pink Letter.

Jon falls for the bait (hook line and sinker), Marsh et al. strike.

Maybe a few holes, but I think it works. Thoughts?

Thorne as the HM is interesting and very logical. Now if the NW turncloaks have made a secret alliance with the Boltons, would that mean that they will go after Stannis' remaining forces as well?

But I just feel the way the story is moving torward Manderly turning on the Freys/Boltons and allying w/ Stannis and his boys. To get his revenge without being labelled a turncloak to the other Northern lords he will need Rickon. Rickon Stark can rally the entire north against the Boltons/Freys for his rightful claim of Winterfell. Since we know we will start shortly before the BfWF, i think Davos will have to of returned to Manderley "off-screen". I thought that the fingers were a clue and the HM's reaction to me was filled with as much irony as scorn.

[Ser Elvin of Clymer]

He has to be someone who wasnt supposed to be there which is why he grabbed his dagger when thein locked eyes with him

Also hes probably a stark supporter for him to recgonize theon... Esspecially after the torturing

Yet also needs to not want to immediately kill Theon, R. Glover knows Theon did not actually kill the boys and would have a bigger vengeance plan in progress.

[Jayce]

There was a theory that Lady Dustin did something in the crypts to open the way for someone else to enter Winterfell, as a part of the northern conspiracy. The closest northmen to Winterfell that we know of is the other Umbers, and if there is some northern conspiracy going on then there would need to be communication.

Therefore I think that the suggestion of the HM being one of the Umbers, come to speak with the other Umber (and plan) is a very good option.

Read more here:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/59217-the-northmen-inside-and-outside-winterfell-conspiration/

[bemused]

I've long held the same opinion as Ser Elvin on this.

Theon has become more and more attuned to the supernatural since he's returned to WF. He feels WF is full of ghosts, has tried to communicate with the Old Gods and feels " them " communicating with him. He feels he is one of the ghosts in WF, himself. When he meets the HM he reacts in a very natural , matter of fact way ..I think in a way that shows he recognizes him , but thinks the HM, too , is one of the ghosts ( and therefore, someone connected to WF) . Theon thinks of him as a " nightwalker ", a term with supernatural connotations. He's very reluctant to show his hands to anyone , even people who already know what's been done to him..But he feels the Old gods , and probably the ghosts , can see into him anyway..and they're the ones he wants to explain himself to... All of this is part of what makes me think the HM is Benjen. Other things fit when you look at it from other standpoints.

The HM doesn't appear until after Lady Barbrey has her men clear the snow and rubble blocking the door to the crypts. She obviously takes note of the missing swords ( checking Wex's story ) and expresses interest in what lies in the lower levels...Her stories of hatred for the Starks are designed to provide cover for her real purpose in being there, in case Roose or Ramsay might be curious...Otherwise , why would a proud woman like Barbrey, bare her innermost feelings to a creature like Theon ?

If she's clearing the way for someone who would it be ? Well, if the knowledge of the passage is passed down from one senior Stark to another ( or if there's some sort of magical Stark recognition built in, like the NW gate at the Nightfort ).. Benjen is the only likely candidate to have found his way in from the outside ( and no, I don't think children would have been told ).

OTOH , if the knowledge had been lost for generations ,and has been re-introduced via BR and the CoTF , Benjen , as a mature , capable Stark ..(who most people assume to be dead , and therefore would not be suddenly missed ) would make the best agent for them. Still he would have to be cautious and secretive in his movements , to avoid discovery. But he would know who among the Northmen he could most trust, and who would be the best liason between him and the others. He would know Lady Dustin's true sentiments regardless of what she said to Theon or even Roose , having known her from youth.

Rickon might feel more comfortable with him than any other lord , even Manderly. And even though Rickon's young and hasn't seen Benjen for some time ,Osha may well know Benjen at least by sight..he was well known to the wildlings.

I think a plan to re-take WF was in motion independent of Stannis' campaign..The North definitely doesn't want the Boltons in WF.. Stannis is no Bolton ,but they probably don't much like the idea of having him in full control of it either.

ETA: the Alliser Thorne thing is interesting , and I definitely think he's up to no good, but I can see no reason for him to travel to WF to conspire , if he can coerce Clydas ito sending ravens, or has access to ravens through his buddy at Eastwatch. And how would he have gotten in secretly with the gates sealed tight ? Besides , he seems to have a deep hatred of more Starks than just Jon , so I doubt he would hurl "kinslayer" and "turncloak" at Theon with such contempt.

[Buried Treasure]

HM does recognize Theon, which some attribute to Theon wearing Greyjoy heraldry at the wedding,

but he also expresses surprise at Theon being alive, meaning he is not someone who has been hanging around Winterfell for the past few months or he would know Theon is alive (at least not to joke w/ him in this manner)

What convinces you that the HM was suprised Theon is still alive?

He say something like 'Theon Greyjoy. How is that you still live?' That is very similar to a question that someone once poses to Jaime (Brienne I think, I'm doing a search to try and find the quote). On that occasion the questioner wasn't suprised Jaime was alive, but was asking what justice there is in the world that when so many innocents had died Jaime was still living.

The question the HM poses to Theon can be taken the same way. Also, that's the question that Theon answers - he says that he still lives because he is still suffering.

He has to be someone who wasnt supposed to be there which is why he grabbed his dagger when thein locked eyes with him

Also hes probably a stark supporter for him to recgonize theon... Esspecially after the torturing

He grabbed his dagger when when he locked eyes with Theon because he was considering killing him then and there (because nearly everybody in Winterfell wants to kill Theon). If the HM was a man not supposed to be there he would have avoided meeting eyes with the person coming from the direction of the great hall to avoid detection - what if instead of Theon (not loyal to the Boltons / easily murdered) it had been someone who could have posed a threat to an interloper (eg. Bolton's captain of guards headed to the wall to check the sentries).

Most likely the HM was one of the hundreds of men that had been in Winterfell for several weeks. Theon is infamous and recognisable to all, but he does not know them all.

[Ser Elvin of Clymer]

I agree w/ a lot of your points Buried Treasure, and in the example w/ Jamie I agree,

However in this case I feel the situation dictates its not a joke or a curse

ie- I saw you yesterday morning in the great hall, but how do you still live?

as a jest or curse seems misplaced & I interpreted it as a reaction based on someone who knows what Theon has been going through but hasn't really been at Winterfell for the wedding where Theon gave away the bride (as the most hated man in the North) very publicly.

If HR said that and then stabbed him I would completely agree w/ you.

So much depends on a tone/description that isn't there & I am in agreement w/ Fittlelinger that it is significantly out of charachter for GRRM, even compared to the earlier moment in the Great Hall where Theon describes the Spearwife.

Thanks for the shout Bemused, kinda crazy that we can agree and still find other outcomes, your making me re-think it w/ Benjen - feels like groundhog day.

[Greg Miller_2367]

Its definitly Theon looking at himself...all these other people proposed barely know him, have only briefly met him, or presumably have never met him. And Asha didnt even recognize Theon at first when she saw him in the Teaser Chapter with Stannis, so what makes you think any of these other people who barely know him would immediatley recognize him in a dark and snowy Winterfell. The purpose is that he is finally recognizing himself as Theon and not Reek.

[little & less]

Unless there is some compelling evidence that will be released soon, none of the arguments make me believe that the HM is nothing more than a guard on patrol. He was probably just a random man-at-arms loyal to Manderly based on his interaction with Theon.

Either way, I'm not convinced the HM is playing a significant role in the story, killed any of the Frey men, or will have some sort of big reveal.

[bemused]

little & less ... If he's a random man at arms what is the point of the encounter ? GRRM has already given us examples of people in the hall, guards etc., muttering as he passed , turning their heads and spitting.Why would he write in yet another example , but make the character an obvious mystery man , if he has no import ?

I don't think the HM is responsible for all the murders..probably not any of them... It was not exclusively Frey men who were killed either.

Greg...Theon looking at himself is , to me , one of the most far-fetched suggestions. I don't think Theon actually disassociates. He's always deperately reminding himself that he has to play , or "be" Reek.. deep down , he knows he's not, but to slip up would mean more torture. It's a defense mechanism that begins to fall away as soon as Ramsay is not present , or as soon as anyone else recognizes him as Theon... Many people who espouse this theory think Theon is seeing his reflection in the glass gardens , but we're specifically told the glass gardens are badly broken , and the surviving panes are covered in hoarfrost , and it's in the middle of a snowstorm. No moonlight or any other source of light...infinitesimally small chance of reflection. So it hasn't been convincingly argued ,for me.

In fact , Benjen, and certainly any of Robb's bannermen would have at least as much acquaintance with Theon as Asha , and Asha was not expecting him to turn up in Stannis' camp, whereas any Northman involved in the proposed conspiracy , would no doubt know Theon was in WF, even if they were not at the wedding in person.

I think GRRM could write a more effective account of emerging self recognition than that scene.. What Theon says to the HM shows his continuing desire to explain / expiate his betrayal of the Starks ,particularly to the Old Gods ( and by extension the ghosts ,since he often thinks of the Gods and ghosts in almost the same "breath" ) , and to show he's suffered for his actions . He's seeking understanding from the HM .