From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa IX

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

I wonder if Manderly's plan to install Rickon will force Pete to trump that with Sansa and somehow put Manderly out of business or at least out of favor, maybe even by... no, Pete wouldn't sign on with Stannis, would he? That'd be too much risk / exposure. He'd wait until it was more of a sure thing and his support instantly makes someone the winner. Although, if the Theon King thing looks like it might pan out, that'd add yet another kingdom to the list for Pete/Stannis, along with Braavosi support. Pete could offer Stannis Harenhal as a kingly seat in northern exile, since he sure doesn't want it for himself. So at some point Stannis/Pete would start looking good. Until you consider how Aegon is consolidating the South. Then Stannis looks like a very unsure bet again, and Pete wouldn't want to ally with the wrong one. Pete's expertise has been noted most in KL, and that's where I was picturing him being drawn back to (by popular demand), not further north. Winterfell is like a husk that just needs to be cleaned out of vermin for now, which nobody's probably going to rebuild until the spring that's years away. At KL, Petey can be at the center of everything again at the close, overseeing the Cercei / Aegon fiasco that's coming, and he can start leveraging Aegon to keep Varys from enjoying total success. Eh. Travel time is also a factor, winter snows too. (The relevance of all this being that Sansa may go South, not North, once the High Septon is replaced by someone approved of by Littlefinger. Sansa walking back into KL would be like her Thunderdome challenge).

I could be wrong, but doesn't Stannis plan on killing Littlefinger?

Honestly, I see Sansa really as the only choice to unify the North. Arya is certainly a leader, but not a politician. I would say I could see her leading the armies, but the time skip was skipped. So, she'll be too young. Rickon is too young, and Bran is becoming a tree. Jon, maybe. But he is tied to the Night's Watch. I don't see him leaving it. So, the North falls to Sansa to lead (even if just as regent). Honestly, I would love to see her as Hand in a epilogue thing.

One last thing, KittensRuleBeetsDrool, your avatar is hypnotizing. :bowdown: I have to force myself to look away from it. :drunk:

[HopeForSpring]

In terms of allies, I like Mya Stone but the Lothar connection makes her tricky. I wonder what Sansa's dynamic with Myranda Royce will be.

[Pod The Impaler]

(from the last thread)

The third gown is “dark brown “ with “leaves and vines embroidered around the bodice, sleeves, and hem in golden thread” and she chooses to wear “simple velvet ribbon in autumn gold”. Now this may mean nothing as the dress should be black to be exact, but the reference to leaves and autumn gold and the dark brown are very similar to the colours of House Clegane. Indeed the Autumn gold does seem reminiscent of Sandor’s tale about the three dogs dying in the Autumn grass. As this is the dress she chooses, is this foreshadowing her choosing as simpler life with Sandor? Or could it be her dressing appropriately to her station?

This comment above, well, it speculates on Sansa's plain clothes ("plainclothes", heh) being something related to the Hound. Actually, another possibility is that it's related to Arya, as a contrast. Arya was forced (at Acorn Hall) to wear girly but plain clothes to make her look better; Sansa was forced to wear hers to make her look worse.

Now if you're looking for something Hound-related to chew on, someone also made a comment that the Hound had seemingly "killed" Arya by being the last important person to have seen Arya Stark as herself.

But symbolism aside, it actually makes a good plot point. The Hound and Arya parted at the Saltpans. Since then, Arya has disappeared to everyone in Westeros' knowledge, presumed dead. The atrocities that took place during the pillaging of the Saltpans were attributed to The Hound because of Rorge and Biter using his helmet. We have seen many characters comment on that atrocity, and one again the Hound is given blame for crimes he did not commit.

However, I don't think we have read anywhere that Sansa has heard about the grievous crimes of "The Hound" at the Saltpans (putting a whole town to the sword, raping, burning, chewing a girl's breasts off). If she finds that out, what would her reaction to him be? Or worse, if she finds out that Arya Stark was last seen at the Saltpans with him, and is now presumed dead, will she think the Hound raped and murdered Arya ?

I feel this is often missed, first, because of the dramatic tension in the Lysa/Sansa/Petyr interaction and Sansa’s near escape from death; second, because we have had little to no follow-up thoughts from Sansa on the subject. When her mind returns to the scene it is always focused on Lysa’s murder and her own near-miss. ...

Petyr, on the other hand, is more wary. After Lysa spills her story about the moon tea and aborting Petyr’s child, Petyr says, “You ought not to talk so much. We don’t want Alayne to know more than she should, do we?”

But Lysa throws caution out the Moon Door. ... The beans have been spilled, and how!

The import of Lysa’s words does not register with Sansa right now, because Lysa nearly killed her. She’s in a state of numb shock. Then a few more falsely reassuring words from Petyr, and Lysa flies. Petyr, cool as a cucumber, asks Sansa if she is okay, then tells her to let the guards in. “This singer [Marillion, a silent witness to the whole event] has killed my lady wife.”

So there it is in all its glory: Lysa poisoned Jon Arryn and told Catelyn that the Lannisters did it on Petyr’s orders. Petyr has murdered her aunt and framed Marillion. Sansa now has some real dirt on Petyr. What can, or will, she do with it?

Nothing, right now.... In her first chapter – notably, from the POV of Sansa, not Alayne – she is worried about having to lie to Lord Nestor Royce about Marillion killing Lysa. ...

As she collects her wits preparing to lie to Lord Royce and comforting Sweetrobin, Sansa recalls the conversation but blames Lysa: “She was mad and dangerous. She murdered her own lord husband, and would have murdered me…” Sansa remembers what she heard but blames Lysa for being “mad.” I think right now she is too traumatized from her own near-murder and is desperately trying to cover her own butt to have had the fact that Lysa murdered Jon Arryn on Petyr’s orders sink in. Plus there is the power of denial – Littlefinger is her only friend and refuge. She can’t think of him as a cold-blooded murderer. As I see it, given what she’s been through and what her current position is, she is dissociating, which many victims of abuse and trauma do in order to save their own sanity.

However, there is some subtext here, and it is about the power of singers and storytellers to spread damaging rumors. ... But the facts revealed by Lysa before she went flying are there and ticking away like a time bomb.

Well, guess who loves to sing?

Who loves to sing ?

Little birds. Little birds sing. They sing to Hounds, to Spiders, to She-Wolves, perhaps even to Lions and Stags.

I agree that what information Sansa is holding now is like an atomic bomb. I just don't think Sansa has fully processed what it means yet. Not politically at any rate. Part of her is disassociating it, focusing on the immediate events, the personal side. The problem is when she fully grasps the magnitude of what she's been told: Lysa Arryn murdered her husband, the Lord of the Vale, annd blamed the lannisters - triggering the death of the sovereign, and the War of 5 Kings. Sansa's father, mother, sister, and brothers (and aunt, LOL) are all dead because of it.

What a pretty song this will make.

[saryan]

First off, I just want to say I love these threads. :)

Several people posted earlier about Sansa and whether she will have a role in fighting the Others, and what will happen when the dragons finally make their grand appearance in Westeros. I’ve been rereading GOT and I read this passage the other day that just jumped out at me as possible foreshadowing:

(It’s after Ned and the girls have gotten word from WF that Bran is alive, and Ned takes them out to the castle godswood to pray about it):

The heart tree there was a great oak, its ancient limbs overgrown with smokeberry vines; they knelt before it to offer their thanksgiving, as if it had been a weirwood. Sansa drifted to sleep as the moon rose, Arya several hours later, curling up in the grass under Ned’s cloak. All through the dawn hours he kept his vigil alone. When the dawn broke over the city, the dark red blooms of dragon’s breath surrounded the girls where they lay. “I dreamed of Bran,” Sansa had whispered to him. “I saw him smiling.”

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar (and a plant named after the magical power of a mythological creature is just a plant), so it might not be foreshadowing at all, but it definitely made me stop (and be nervous for the girls) in a way it hadn’t the first time I read the series. I think it also seemed foreshadowy to me in part because it was mentioned in conjunction with dreaming, which tends to be prophetic in this series.

Although when I think about it in the context of the Others coming, the dragon’s breath might be a symbol of protection for both of them. It also makes me think they will somehow be reunited again. Like I said I’m not entirely sure what to think of it, but it jumped out at me and seemed relevant to this discussion.

Sansa Stark is my honey badger.

Haha!

[brashcandy]

Although when I think about it in the context of the Others coming, the dragon’s breath might be a symbol of protection for both of them. It also makes me think they will somehow be reunited again. Like I said I’m not entirely sure what to think of it, but it jumped out at me and seemed relevant to this discussion.

I think this is really interesting! And I like your reading of the dragon's breath as a symbol of protection. There have been credible theories that Arya might be asked to infiltrate Dany's camp on its way back to Westeros, so it's definitely possible that we could see one sister closely aligned with these animals, and maybe Bran as well using his warg powers. Martin can really do anything here :) I personally think Dany might end up landing in the North first, but it could very well be the Vale.

[brashcandy]

In terms of allies, I like Mya Stone but the Lothar connection makes her tricky. I wonder what Sansa's dynamic with Myranda Royce will be.

I think we have a pretty good idea of the dynamic with Randa Royce already :) Randa will continue to be scandalous and a bit nosy, trying to glean info about LF, while Sansa will partake in the gossip up to a point and have to be on guard around the girl. I think she has the potential to develop a much more genuine relationship with Mya, and although Lothur is LF's man, we've seen him already confiding in Sansa, and her interest in getting him and Mya together could ultimately lead him to switch loyalties.

[Valkyrja]

I think this is really interesting! And I like your reading of the dragon's breath as a symbol of protection. There have been credible theories that Arya might be asked to infiltrate Dany's camp on its way back to Westeros, so it's definitely possible that we could see one sister closely aligned with these animals, and maybe Bran as well using his warg powers. Martin can really do anything here :) I personally think Dany might end up landing in the North first, but it could very well be the Vale.

I agree, this is such an interesting catch wrt to the dragon's breath, and I missed it on my most recent re-read because I was focusing purely on a close reading of Sansa's chapters rather than Ned's. I think it is not reading too much into it in this case because the symbolism and foreshadowing in AGoT is much more overt imo than later in the series, as Martin was writing before the internet fandom took off and everyone was over-analyzing every single passage over and over again (and coming up with theories like R+L=J). ;)

I also highlighted the last sentence because I too for a long time thought that Dany would ultimately land in the North and essentially 'pass over' the whole Iron Throne/Game of Thrones nonsense due to the much more immediate threat of the Others. But perhaps this will still be the case, but she'll land in or around the Vale instead and make her way father North? Or, perhaps as some have suggested in theories elsewhere on this board, the Riverlands/Trident area (closer to the Vale) will be where the final showdown with the Others will take place? In other words, perhaps the North will become overrun by the Others (for a time during Winter) and they will make their way South (raising wights as they go along). I always thought it was significant that there were/are now so many dead bodies lying around the Riverlands. (I know its likely that the Others have to kill the person themselves in order to make them a wight, but still, it seems significant to me).

All of this is to say that perhaps Sansa's involvement with the 'final showdown' won't even necessitate her already having become Regent of Winterfell (though that would be great) because maybe the fight will converge in an area closer to the Vale (if that is indeed where she remains for a while longer in the storyline).

Once again, it is so frustrating that we don't have any TWoW spoiler chapters for Sansa. :bang:

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

I could be wrong, but doesn't Stannis plan on killing Littlefinger?

Honestly, I see Sansa really as the only choice to unify the North. Arya is certainly a leader, but not a politician. I would say I could see her leading the armies, but the time skip was skipped. So, she'll be too young. Rickon is too young, and Bran is becoming a tree. Jon, maybe. But he is tied to the Night's Watch. I don't see him leaving it. So, the North falls to Sansa to lead (even if just as regent). Honestly, I would love to see her as Hand in a epilogue thing.

One last thing, KittensRuleBeetsDrool, your avatar is hypnotizing. :bowdown: I have to force myself to look away from it. :drunk:

(Since everyone else has a ASOIAF avatar I thought I'd be original - and I find it hypnotic too, that is why I love it! :D And I love kitties!)

That's an excellent point about Arya being a leader, not a politician - and I think that Sansa is training to be a politician. A politician is just what the Stark family needs, as the gods know that poor Ned wasn't one! Jon is on his way to becoming both a leader and a politician; I don't think his ultimate destiny is going to be the North or Winterfell though, as I firmly believe that R + L = J and that Jon's destiny may not even be an earthly one - or at least it's more of a continent-wide one. Meanwhile, Brandon is a tree, and Arya and Rickon are both going to need some extensive emotional rehabilitation when they return. Arya is a child soldier and Rickon may be a feral child. The North will rally around Ned's little boy like nobody's business, but Rickon is going to be a figurehead for a while. Sansa is the only Stark offspring grown enough and having her head together enough to do any ruling. It's going to be an interesting character arc for her - from starting out as a dreamy, impractical, trusting (albeit very intelligent) young girl to a savvy and tough-minded woman.

Who loves to sing ?

Little birds. Little birds sing. They sing to Hounds, to Spiders, to She-Wolves, perhaps even to Lions and Stags.

I agree that what information Sansa is holding now is like an atomic bomb. I just don't think Sansa has fully processed what it means yet. Not politically at any rate. Part of her is disassociating it, focusing on the immediate events, the personal side. The problem is when she fully grasps the magnitude of what she's been told: Lysa Arryn murdered her husband, the Lord of the Vale, annd blamed the lannisters - triggering the death of the sovereign, and the War of 5 Kings. Sansa's father, mother, sister, and brothers (and aunt, LOL) are all dead because of it.

What a pretty song this will make.

And you've heard of the saying "a little bird told me such and such!" when one doesn't want to divulge the source of one's information. I think the little bird is going to be chirping away into all the right ears pretty soon. And I think she will start in a very underhanded way by getting a minstrel to sing a song or have some mummers put on a puppet show like the one that made Cersei so angry - where a stag was killed by lions and a dragon came around to kill the lions. A mockingbird devoured by a wolf perhaps?

As for who will be her allies in the Vale: I really hope for Mya Stone, because Sansa is playing the role of a bastard girl with the same regional surname, and Mya is a great example of a woman who has made herself a place in society without the protection of a man (father or husband). And Mya is a person of such importance - without her and her provisions, the Eyrie would starve, and without her and her mules to bring everyone up and down the mountain, nobody could get in or out of the Eyrie. Petyr is teaching Sansa what can be accomplished by telling people what they want to hear and giving them something they want (wine, boys, gold); Mya can teach her that by providing essentials one can gain power without a male protector or family name.

Some speculation on a couple of other people, Bronze Yohn Royce and Anya Waynwood: When Bronze Yohn meets "Alayne," she notes that his brows crinkle and he peers suspiciously at her. "Do I know you, girl?" Bronze Yohn had indeed met Sansa before, and Sansa was so worried that he had recognized her that she couldn't speak. And she briefly considers throwing herself at his feet and begging for rescue, but she then thinks that BY "had never fought for Robb, so why should he fight for me?" Sansa is so over knights by now, isn't she! :)

However, I think that BY has his suspicions of who "Alayne" is, and he is no friend of Petyr Baelish. I also was pointed to something interesting from GRRM himself in a So Spake Martin post that Petyr's weakness is that he has no army. BY on the other hand can command a huge army as the head of the Lords Declarant. If he figures out that Alayne is in fact Ned's Little Girl, she might not need HtH to have an army at her disposal. ETA: Here is the link to the SSM quote about LF having no army:

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1284/ "GRRM laughed and said I need to remember that for all his power Littlefinger has no army."

Now, Anya Waynwood. In AFFC when the Lords Declarant meet and Alayne is hostessing, they start making smarmy remarks about her and her virginity :stillsick: (I wanted to smack Lord Hunter and Lyn Corbray one - "ripe for plucking" indeed! ). Then Anya Waynwood speaks up for her: "Is this what passes for courtesy at Heart's Home?...The girl is young and gently bred, and has suffered enough horrors. Mind your tongue, ser."

Aside from showing the sexual harrassment that bastard girls have to put up with, I wonder if Anya also knows more than she wants to let on. How does she know that a bastard girl is "gently bred?" Has Petyr had a way to tell her that here is his bastard daughter who was raised in a septry? I don't think so, as this meeting seems to be the first time they've seen Petyr in a while. Then the "suffered through enough horrors." I assume that Anya probably knows about how Lysa died and that Alayne witnessed it, but I wonder if that is enough to use the plural of "horrors." Does Anya also have a suspicion that Alayne is Sansa and has been through multiple horrors indeed?

I am wondering what roles Bronze Yohn Royce and Anya Waynwood - both of whom seem to dislike and resent Petyr and NOT want him in power - will be vis-a-vis Sansa.

[Spiderweaves]

The last thing I want to see at this second is her marriage annulled because then her value becomes who she can become married off to again.

In her society, that's tremendous value to have, though, and a wily, game-playing Sansa could make much of it.

Picture it: she would be a highborn woman from a respected family with many, many childbearing years left. She would have dozens of qualified suitors dying to do her bidding.

She could lead LF on, get him to do all kinds of dirty work for her, and then drop him. Then, on to the next dupe, er, fiancee.

[A...]

I think it's important to remember that Anyya Waynwood is HtH's guardian at this point, so she will probably be the other person (along with LF) who will provide 'parental supervision' to the courtship. This will give her ample opportunity to observe Alayne to her heart's content and may lead to suspicions on her part BUT I think it could also have the effect of making Sansa mistrustful of her - after all she is part of another plot to get her married off! And while LF is a man and supposedly her father, Anya is a woman who is not, in Sansa's view, being solidaritous with her fellow woman's need for agency. So I don't think it likely Sansa will confide in Anya.

Bronze Yohn is a possibility, but an uncertain one so far, tbh I'm not sure WHAT to think of him.

I think the best bets for confidantes are Mya and Lothor BUT I still maintain my theory that Randa will be the one to uncover that something fishy is going on with Alayne. Although I'm fairly certain it will be LF's creepy advances she will find out about because she seems to be interested in marrying him and will likely be watching him closely. From there she might go on to further information, but that's a bit too far ahead to speculate about at this stage.

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

Hmm, and here's something very interesting in another SSM interview:

(Asking about a young unwed heiress having a paramour): GRRM: No comment. (Link: http://www.westeros....SSM/Entry/1285/ )

Perhaps this is just me crackpotting, but I wonder if this means Sansa might be a young unwed heiress who takes a paramour! :D (It's also possible that GRRM just meant Arianne, or Dany + Daario in ADWD)

As for Randa - it does seem she's setting her cap for LF. And we know how much incest is abhorred in Westeros - if she walks in on LF and Alayne in a compromising position, there probably would be some fallout. Sansa might decide to reveal her true identity in order to not be accused of incest.

[Kittykatknits]

Hmm, and here's something very interesting in another SSM interview:

(Asking about a young unwed heiress having a paramour): GRRM: No comment. (Link: http://www.westeros....SSM/Entry/1285/ )

Perhaps this is just me crackpotting, but I wonder if this means Sansa might be a young unwed heiress who takes a paramour! :D (It's also possible that GRRM just meant Arianne, or Dany + Daario in ADWD)

As for Randa - it does seem she's setting her cap for LF. And we know how much incest is abhorred in Westeros - if she walks in on LF and Alayne in a compromising position, there probably would be some fallout. Sansa might decide to reveal her true identity in order to not be accused of incest.

I saw this and wanted to comment real quick but I looked up paramour on dictionary.com real quick and got this:

noun

1.

an illicit lover, especially of a married person.

2.

any lover.

So, maybe that indicates something? Dany ended her relationship with Daario just before the marriage. Also, this was written back in 2002. I can't remember if that is before or after he wrote the five year gap but it is definetly long before he wrote the Dany chapters in Mereen, material he had to work on because of the Mereen knot. So, maybe there is more to this question than just Dany? Or maybe I'm just grasping at straws....

[Knight]

I think this is really interesting! And I like your reading of the dragon's breath as a symbol of protection. There have been credible theories that Arya might be asked to infiltrate Dany's camp on its way back to Westeros, so it's definitely possible that we could see one sister closely aligned with these animals, and maybe Bran as well using his warg powers. Martin can really do anything here :) I personally think Dany might end up landing in the North first, but it could very well be the Vale.

There's also speculation going around that there might be a dragon hidden under Winterfell which also connects to the possible protective power of dragon's breath. That theory may be too far in crackpot-range though.

[brashcandy]

It is strange funny that he wouldn't give an answer to that question :)

[Valkyrja]

Indeed. My hope is that he meant Sansa but then wrote the whole Daario as Dany's paramour afterward in part to throw us off. ;)

Ok, I realize that is ridiculous wishful thinking on my part. :P

[Winter's Knight]

Is homosexuality tolerated to an equal degree for women as it is for men? If so, can one's paramour be of the same gender?

One's paramour can be of the same sex.

W00t! More fuel for the good ship Briennsa.

[brashcandy]

Indeed. My hope is that he meant Sansa but then wrote the whole Daario as Dany's paramour afterward in part to throw us off. ;)

Ok, I realize that is ridiculous wishful thinking on my part. :P

Let me hop on the train of wishful thinking for a moment: :)

Even so, it is via Dany's relationship with Daario that we get some clues about Sansa and how she feels about Sandor. And Sansa has actually come into contact with paramours like Ellaria Sand.

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

Let me hop on the train of wishful thinking for a moment: :)

Even so, it is via Dany's relationship with Daario that we get some clues about Sansa and how she feels about Sandor. And Sansa has actually come into contact with paramours like Ellaria Sand.

And she has seen Ellaria's strength of character and self-respect, as well as the love Oberyn had ( :bawl: ) for her. I'm glad she met Ellaria (one of my favorite minor characters along with Arianne and the Sand Snakes).

The Targaryens have always had close ties with the Martells. The current generation of Martells may not be as kindly disposed towards Dany because of what happened to Quentyn (which wasn't her fault, stoopid kid decided to mess with dragons!) but it's possible they will still ally with her. And Dany herself had a paramour. Maybe Dany will introduce more freedom for women into Westeros? Maybe the Dornish influence will become stronger?

In any event, I do want to see Sansa with a family and children and a love life, but I hate the thought of her being married off just for her claim (and so does she!). Her taking a paramour would give her the best of both worlds - someone who could give her love and a family for herself, not for her claim on the North.

[brashcandy]

The Targaryens have always had close ties with the Martells. The current generation of Martells may not be as kindly disposed towards Dany because of what happened to Quentyn (which wasn't her fault, stoopid kid decided to mess with dragons!) but it's possible they will still ally with her. And Dany herself had a paramour. Maybe Dany will introduce more freedom for women into Westeros? Maybe the Dornish influence will become stronger?

Well Doran has sent Nymeria and Tyene to KL in the two central settings of power - the small council and with the Faith - so I think we should see them stirring up/being involved in some interesting plots going forward. Then we have Arianne on her way to Aegon with Elia Sand, so the Dornish influence should definitely be felt in the next book.

[Caro99]

*Love the posts that have been brought up here lately by everyone!! By the way, sorry for not being able to put what some of you said under the quote section box, but I can’t use that with this silly foreign keyboard we bought recently :/ I’m sorry this will be a long post but that’s what happens when you leave this thread for a day!

Queen Cersei I, wonderful job with the Shae analysis. I do get why Shae was the way she was and why she resented Sansa, but I just can’t warm up to her. At least your post helped me “get her” a little more. (TV Shae is another matter, and when Sansa gets married to Tyrion, well, the dynamic between this triangle is one I can’t wait to see!)

Ragnorak, beautiful analysis of the snow-building castle scene!! I’d never read it the way you described it before- never even thought of Arya and bran joining in on what the whole scene might mean for Sansa’s future, so thanks for that! J

Tagganaro & Kitty, I’d also never read that particular moment when Sansa steps into the snow covered godswood and closes her eyes before falling to her knees as a reference to her accepting winter, or winter finally catching up with her. It’s so accurate of course and there isn’t any other better way to put it after Kittykat’s words, “Sansa walks outside and sees the snow, and tastes it, falling to her knees. I can picture that moment and it’s a very powerful scene. Sansa is literally accepting snow, the object of winter, in to her body. The act brings her to her knees, a position that I think of as one of reverence, of worship, of submission. She's the daughter of winter in this scene to me.”

Oh and Kitty, one of your latest posts (I think the one about Robin and Rickon) had me imagining the people from that place wanting to help Rickon claim back Winterfell for some reason or other…

Knight, great post on another new meaning to Sandor’s cloak with the way you described that Sansa’s skin was bare and Sandor’s cloak comforted her and how this sort of becomes a parallel to her letting him into her comfort/trust zone. It also made me imaging a future where only around Sandor would Sansa be able to show her true feelings and thoughts, which is also something that has already been happening with Sandor trusting her with things from his past and Sansa speaking her mind against his ideals and views in the first 2 books. & about your comment on dragons beneath Winterfell, no idea what I think about that but at least it would be another reason to explain Winterfell’s walls being so warm.

Brash: “When LF jokingly talks about it not being the first giant that has ended with its head on the walls of Winterfell, Sansa replies that this only happens in the stories. Well, we know that stories have a way of coming to life.”

For me when she tells him that those are only stories and leaves him in the godswood is the moment when she leaves her childhood behind. Hours later when she is nearly killed yet lives on makes me wonder that adult life won’t be easy for Sansa, yet she will endure everything that is thrown her way.

Oh and you also said this, “I think the point Ragnorak made is particularly relevant to this: she considers building a snow knight but ends up with Winterfell. She's no longer going to be depending on a hero to rescue her, but will be drawing on the innate strengths of her Stark identity.” Which fits nicely into the ironic twist she’s gone through in the course of just 5 books. It ties in with the misguided idea many have of her and of how she just sat down during her time in KL waiting for a knight to come and rescue her, when in reality ever since she accepted that she would have to die alongside Joff is she threw him off that rampart, Sansa has actively taken a role in taking matters into her own hands when her fate is concerned.

KittensRBD, you’ve brought up so many good things over the last couple of days that gave me mental hmwk, so here are my thoughts on what you wrote:

“I really think she is going to reject the idea that SR has to die for her to somehow command an army and regain the North.” Agree. Her compassion has to overthrow LF’s ruthlessness soon, and however much she wants to get back home, she isn’t going to help in her cousin’s demise with the first proposition to get back to Winterfell she is offered with. Which may make her in the end one of the best candidates to re-claim and rule the North.

“I am guessing that he does want Sansa, as Alayne, to charm Harry - but not to marry him. Given his reputation, I surmise he might hope that Harry seduces Sansa (thinking she's just Alayne), impregnates her, refuses to marry her, and now poor Sansa, disgraced and with a bastard child, will have no-one to turn to but Daddy Dearest. And now of course the North isn't going to rally to her cause, she won't have any Vale backing...she's just another bastard in trouble.” I remember a couple of threads back I think that people were saying there isn’t at least at present much appeal in the North for Petyr to want to go up there, so your theory fits rather perturbing yet nicely into LF’s wishes of ruling everything below the Neck alongside an heir that connects many of the important houses there. You then said that “To the North, she’s persona non grata as “Lady Lannister.” Stannis is the one who says this, but since most of the northern lords didn’t do anything when fake Arya was married to a monster right before them, I think Sansa is not an option they are currently wishing to put their trust in. Sansa doesn’t think of herself as a Lannister, so I wonder if the thought of the north calling her that has crossed her mind? It follows the “what will she do when she learns Robb didn’t put her in his will”. I don’t think she’ll hate Robb or turn against the north of course, but I don’t want this to make her feel sad L

“So true and if Sansa wants to, she could use the power of song and story to undermine her opponents. People underestimated Littlefinger all his life (short, weak, poor, cheerfully self-deprecating) just as they have been underestimating Sansa (silly little girl, stupid, weak). Later in this chapter Petyr says to Sansa, “You see the wonders that can be worked with lies and Arbor gold?” Nicely put and it also makes me think of Petyr’s question to Sansa in the fingers about which is more dangerous- the blade in front of you an enemy holds or the secret hidden dirk someone you thought was your friend holds behind your back…

“I predict that Sansa will be able to use the power of words and intellect – which, after all, was what got Petyr into his position of power – to establish her own agency and power and to do what she wants to do. She overheard that damning conversation for a reason and it will be interesting to see where she goes with it.” Couldn’t agree more. When the Starks hear of Jon Arryn’s death back in the first book, well, it’s the beginnign of the many horrible things that will happen to each of them, and Jon’s murder affected many events with regards to other people, so for George to let us readers know what really happened with Jon Arryn in Sansa’s chapter means that the beans Lysa spilled will not be hidden for much longer- and who better than Sansa to disclose them when she wants to free herself of LF?

Pod, about your question of what will Sansa believe when she hears of the Hound’s atrocities in Saltpans- I hope Sansa just knows Sandor wouldn’t go raping and killing and stealing while the town burned down around him.

*And now, these are just some other points which I would like to randomly put my two cents to: :)

• About Sansa fighting against the others, well when the fight is done someone strong with many ties to other families and capable at persuading and praising people will be needed so... LF seems to me the sort who wouldn’t go broke with the destruction or the birth of a new civilization or world, and Sansa is his pupil. So Sansa could after the Others re-build the north and help get things back on track? Like getting food supplies from the Vale, winning the help from others for re-construction, letting the smallfolk know that they can trust the Stark in Winterfell once again just as in days long gone by…
  
• I don’t think LF has any inclination of taking Sansa north, but since this is George we are talking about, maybe Stannis will will the battle for Winterfell in Winds, and since know he has allied himself with the Bank of Braavos I can see LF at least thinking of trying to sort of win his favour with Stannis. We know that in the first book he preferred Renly over Stannis and told Ned so, but if things compelled him to seek refuge North, will he be willing to give up his “claim” of Sansa over to Stannis who might very well end up marrying her to a wilding or something? I know this is crackpot, and that Sansa may not even give LF the chance of this, or might even desert him long before that, but well this had never occurred to me before, so I just thought I’d put it in here… J
  
• About re-building Winterfell, it’s not a secret that it would be a very hard daunting work, but I wonder if Sansa not be able or allowed to help with this until LF is gone and Alayne is put to rest and Sansa Stark can come again?
  
• Last but not least, & to finally finish this very long post for which I once again apologize, I’ll throw in my thoughts on Sandor as Sansa’s paramour: I can’t say I would love the idea of Sansa having Sandor as he lover, since I bet both will resent her husband or their necessity to keep things as discrete as possible, but if George wants to give us that ending, I wouldn’t object either. If they could at least find a measure of happiness like this then the bittersweet ending for Sansa could be in part this..?