Why does Melisandre Bleed?

[Stark@heart]

Mel is freaky. The whole passage is weird and the part about "transforming her" The Mel we know is bad enough, I really don't want to see her become some fire demon/harpie.

[yolkboy]

I think it is pretty safe to say that Melony was Melisandre as a child ergo she can't be this Seastar character.

If Melisandre is simply Melisandre..WHY THE HECK DOES SHE WEAR THAT LARGE RUBY AROUND HER NECK???

We know rubies serve the purpose of glamouring.... who is under her glamour????

George likes to suprise us, so why would it be someone we dont know/havent heard of.... and what better reveal than an old crone who is a blackfyre and lover of 1000 eyed Bloodraven.??

Who else could she really be other than Sheira, who we know had a great affinity to eastern magic???

And don't tell me Hot Pie is behind the mask.

[Associate Maester]

If Melisandre is simply Melisandre..WHY THE HECK DOES SHE WEAR THAT LARGE RUBY AROUND HER NECK???

We know rubies serve the purpose of glamouring.... who is under her glamour????

George likes to suprise us, so why would it be someone we dont know/havent heard of.... and what better reveal than an old crone who is a blackfyre and lover of 1000 eyed Bloodraven.??

Who else could she really be other than Sheira, who we know had a great affinity to eastern magic???

And don't tell me Hot Pie is behind the mask.

The ruby seems to serve multiple purposes, perhaps even as a glamour of some sort (given it is fairly obvious she is much older than she appears). BR seems to have gotten a peek at her past and so do we. Given the text indicates that Melony was a young girl it seems pretty obvious that Mel isn't Seastar (haven't read the DE tales yet so what I know of her is limited). I just don't buy the theory.

[scurvy]

I don't think the lover refers to BR. The lover is R'hllor. But, it's possible that R'hllor and BR are at war over her similar to BR and Daemon Blackfyre.

Shiera practiced dark arts and may have chosen a different path than BR did, aligning with the Old Gods. But, her mother was from Lys right, not Asshaii beyond the Shadow. BR's mother was of the First Men so it would make sense he would go to the Old Gods with his power. But, if she was from Lys, the Red God makes little sense.

[yolkboy]

I don't think the lover refers to BR. The lover is R'hllor. But, it's possible that R'hllor and BR are at war over her similar to BR and Daemon Blackfyre.

Shiera practiced dark arts and may have chosen a different path than BR did, aligning with the Old Gods. But, her mother was from Lys right, not Asshaii beyond the Shadow. BR's mother was of the First Men so it would make sense he would go to the Old Gods with his power. But, if she was from Lys, the Red God makes little sense.

Really really great stuff here scurvy! Very close to something ive been thinking about!

Although - Mel is supposedly from Asshai, is it beyond the realms of possibility that Sheira went there (or was captured as a slave to R'Hllor) and taken to Asshai to learn her magic tricks of shadowbinding and fire-based premonition????

[pitakon]

I would agree just because I love SHIERA SEASTAR and want her to be somewhere doing something.

[Aly]

You're right, it seems odd and I'm sure there's something to it. I however took it as damage to her womb; not because of the shadowbirthing (physically I mean), but as some sort of reaction because of Bloodraven's "presence".

I think that it has something to do with Bloodraven also, like he knows what she did and the bleeding means that she won't be able to do it again :dunno:

[Cloaked]

I really don't see how Mel could be Sheira. Maester Ameon was the oldest known living man in Westeros at 102 and Bloodraven was a man grown when Aemon was born. Sheira would be older than dirt and a glamour might change her appearance but wouldn't change her capabilities (horseback riding at that age?). So she would have had to have this unnaturally long lifespan (without the aid of the CotF and Weirwoods as BR has) and she would have had this happen during the time in the world when magic has been at its weakest and especially the magic of the Red God worshippers. Not too mention why would she be going to such lengths to put a Baratheon on the throne if she had already lived through the Blackfyre rebellion?

[Jovem Corvo]

Doesn't she thinks that Bloodraven is the Great Other? I think she would reconigze him if she was Shiera, even in the miserable state that his body is now. Also, in the pov of Melisandre we have some interesting glimpses of her past that ,IIRC , implies she was a former slave back in her childhood days. Shiera was not a slave, was she?

[FittleLinger]

I haven't read D&E (So I have no reason to love or hate Shiera - I know about her though), but I think it's really possible. I just wanted to tell people that say that Melony of Lot 7 being an evidence against Mel being anyone else than Melony isn't evidence at all. Do you remember our friend Hugor Hill aka Yolo the dwarf? Exactly the same situation. If something happens and she gets caught by slavers, why would she say she's Shiera Seastar (or anyone else, really)? I mean, if we had a Tyrion POV with reminiscence to his slave life, why wouldn't he remember a line like "Yolo, Lot 4"? It even seems like exactly what Martin would do.

[three-eyed monkey]

I don't recall the full context but the quote above spoke of a wolf boy (Bran) being there with the 1000 eyed 'him', so that'd pretty much narrow it down to BR, right?

A thousand red eyes floated in the rising flames. He sees me. Beside him, a boy with a wolf’s face threw back his head and howled.

Pretty much narrows it down, I agree. Bran and Bloodraven are the best fit unless the boy with the wolf face is Jon, aka AA, and R'hllor has a thousand eyes too. The third eye can be symbolised by a lotus with a thousand petals, iirc, and the eye with which you see god is the eye with which god sees you.

But still, pretty much narrows it down alright.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

If Shiera Seastar has to be alive and mascarading as someone else, I'd say she was Quaithe. Shiera is a bastard daughter of Aegon IV -- it makes sense that she'd be helping another Targ.

In the memory of Melonie, doesn't she hear her mother crying? No way Shiera and her mother got caught by slavers . . .

[yolkboy]

In response to 'Cloaked' ... who knows the true power of that ruby, and that of the Asshai shadow binders? I believe there are rules and limits to the magic, but we just dont know it yet. I suspect if Mel takes her ruby off (i think she will give it to Jon) she will die - and that will be her 'sacrifice' - God knows she's sacrificed so many other people.

Regarding Blackfyre... I think her main goal is to make sure the Azor Ahai prohesy comes true, and thus darkness is banished from the World. She's certainly afraid of darkness

"the night is dark and full of terrors".

I would say either:

1. She genuinely thought Stannis was AA and so served him, but is now having doubts.

2. Knew Stannis wasn't AA all along and was playing him like a pawn to her ends, whatever they may be. It's becoming clearer that she now suspects Jon is AA, and will probably dump Stannis in a heartbeat if thats true.

Personally i'm inclined to believe the former. But get this .......

There's a place called The Shadowlands on the map and i believe there is no natural light there, so they make fires, explaining Red Preists obsession. I think the remnants of the Blackfyres live/hide there.

Bastards always live in the shadows in ASOIAF - this time quite literally. Maybe the Blackfyres have become a bit sick of living in the shadows, and its time "light was cast upon them" by Azor Ahai.

Bastards living in the shadows of their kin is a MAJOR theme in ASOIAF, and i think George is representing this theme in the abstract manor i have described.

[Xango]

You skipped quite a bit between the two quotes in the OP. Right after she mentions Blood Raven and Bran, she thinks they're servants of the Great Other. She then goes on to speak of other things she sees in the flames...and it's only after she's done viewing the flames that she bleeds. If she's supposed to be in love with Blood Raven, why does she name him an enemy immediately when she sees him in the flames? She was legitimately freaked the fuck out, thinking she might have seen the Great Other himself.

[Xango]

You skipped quite a bit between the two quotes in the OP. Right after she mentions Blood Raven and Bran, she thinks they're servants of the Great Other. She then goes on to speak of other things she sees in the flames...and it's only after she's done viewing the flames that she bleeds. If she's supposed to be in love with Blood Raven, why does she name him an enemy immediately when she sees him in the flames? She was legitimately freaked the fuck out, thinking she might have seen the Great Other himself.

and to elaborate on why she's bleeding/burning, I think what her chapter showed is that she's not quite human anymore, and paying the price for it.

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

I dunno what to make of her smoking vag.

I'd stay the hell away.

I dunnno. It gets pretty cold up at the wall.

[yolkboy]

You skipped quite a bit between the two quotes in the OP. Right after she mentions Blood Raven and Bran, she thinks they're servants of the Great Other. She then goes on to speak of other things she sees in the flames...and it's only after she's done viewing the flames that she bleeds. If she's supposed to be in love with Blood Raven, why does she name him an enemy immediately when she sees him in the flames? She was legitimately freaked the fuck out, thinking she might have seen the Great Other himself.

Great work Xango!!!

I'm totally open to the idea Mel/sheira is torn between two lovers, one being BR and the other the Great Other perhaps. Someone skimmed on it before. Youve picked on some details i missed, but it seems to fit even better than before now in my mind. I'd be interested who you think this theory would mark down as your 'Other', i have an idea myself. There's only one it could be in this scenario, right???

I'd also like to know what you thought of my BASTARDS LIVE IN THE SHADOWS idea, and if it fits for you..? Here...

http://asoiaf.wester...20#entry3476411

[Cloaked]

In response to 'Cloaked' ... who knows the true power of that ruby, and that of the Asshai shadow binders? I believe there are rules and limits to the magic, but we just dont know it yet. I suspect if Mel takes her ruby off (i think she will give it to Jon) she will die - and that will be her 'sacrifice' - God knows she's sacrificed so many other people.

Who knows if the ruby has any power at all or if that is the vessel the magic is being funneled through? Why wouldn't she (if she was Shiera) say she saw Brynden staring at her with all his eyes instead of saying she saw a thousand eyes and one?

[Associate Maester]

In response to 'Cloaked' ... who knows the true power of that ruby, and that of the Asshai shadow binders? I believe there are rules and limits to the magic, but we just dont know it yet. I suspect if Mel takes her ruby off (i think she will give it to Jon) she will die - and that will be her 'sacrifice' - God knows she's sacrificed so many other people.

Regarding Blackfyre... I think her main goal is to make sure the Azor Ahai prohesy comes true, and thus darkness is banished from the World. She's certainly afraid of darkness

"the night is dark and full of terrors".

I would say either:

1. She genuinely thought Stannis was AA and so served him, but is now having doubts.

2. Knew Stannis wasn't AA all along and was playing him like a pawn to her ends, whatever they may be. It's becoming clearer that she now suspects Jon is AA, and will probably dump Stannis in a heartbeat if thats true.

Personally i'm inclined to believe the former. But get this .......

There's a place called The Shadowlands on the map and i believe there is no natural light there, so they make fires, explaining Red Preists obsession. I think the remnants of the Blackfyres live/hide there.

Bastards always live in the shadows in ASOIAF - this time quite literally. Maybe the Blackfyres have become a bit sick of living in the shadows, and its time "light was cast upon them" by Azor Ahai.

Bastards living in the shadows of their kin is a MAJOR theme in ASOIAF, and i think George is representing this theme in the abstract manor i have described.

Mel honestly believes Stannis is AA per her POV chapter. In the same chapter there is no evidence she is starting to doubt that. It may be the case in the next book, but certainly not in Dance.

[yolkboy]

Who knows if the ruby has any power at all or if that is the vessel the magic is being funneled through? Why wouldn't she (if she was Shiera) say she saw Brynden staring at her with all his eyes instead of saying she saw a thousand eyes and one?

I'm definately swaying towards their being 3 parties in involved here... Mel/Bloodraven/GreatOther

One thing i'm sure is that Mel bleeding was a highly significant moment.

What do you think of the bastards living in the shadows idea a few posts back? I think it's a biggie, but need some feedback, i could be wrong here.

From Dreadfort81...

"Mel honestly believes Stannis is AA per her POV chapter. In the same chapter there is no evidence she is starting to doubt that. It may be the case in the next book, but certainly not in Dance. "

I'm with you on the first bit. However, when she looks into the flames for AA in 'Dance', she keeps seeing Jon Snow. She KNOWS he's really important, but can't figure out why. I speculate that she might just be starting to think Jon might be AA after all, the flames dont lie. Although i agree, she never says that out loud, i just wonder if she's beginning to suspect her previous ideas might be wrong.