Why Jaime?How did Stannis and Ned know?

[Cat of the Commons]

I Plus there is the fact that, as brother and sister twins, Jaime and Cersei are exceptionally alike in their facial features. If Cersei grew a beard, they'd be identical.

Technically they aren't any more closely related to eachother than they are to Tyrion though. (Assuming Tyrion's father is also Tywin).

[LuisDantas]

True enough, Pliskin.

It does not necessarily follow that he wouldn't change his mind later. At that point in time he was trying to avoid bloodshed right at the heels of Robert's death, but even then he seemed to hesitate.

Who knows what he would think of Stannis as a ruler? His POV chapters don't really give any clue that I remember.

[Elder Sister]

There are clues throughout the books that show that Cersei and Jaime did not behave like normal brother and sister.

One extreme example is when Cersei is discussing childbearing with Sansa. She tells Sansa how Robert would leave and go hunting, but Jaime stayed with her constantly during the child birthing. She reminds Sansa that she will get no such loyalty from Joffrey.

I'm sure everyone knew it, or at least suspected it. If Robert hadn't been such a drunk, he would have known it as well.

[LuisDantas]

Technically they aren't any more closely related to eachother than they are to Tyrion though. (Assuming Tyrion's father is also Tywin).

Aren't they described as having closely matching appearances? That does indeed suggest that their children, too, will be very much like them in appearance.

Although, to be fair, recessive genes are that much more likely to express themselves and might perhaps cause changes in appearance as well.

[Pliskin]

Technically they aren't any more closely related to eachother than they are to Tyrion though. (Assuming Tyrion's father is also Tywin).

I think they are "semi-identical twins", which is a very rare form of twinning.

Same ova, but different sperm.

[Cat of the Commons]

I think they are "semi-identical twins", which is a very rare form of twinning.

Same ova, but different sperm.

I think it's possible but extremely unlikely that they would both be reproductively viable then produce three perfectly healthy (excluding Joff's mental issues), reproductively viable (at least they would all appear that way externally) children with only three sets of genetic information between them... but maybe. Also since it's ASOIAF, who knows.

[LuisDantas]

They have as much genetic information as any healthy human would have. It is to be expected that they have far more recessive genes expressing themselves than an average person would, but has nothing to do with the amount of genetic information.

[Dawn Age]

All Stannis and Ned have to do is check out all of Robert's bastards and their mothers and see how they all had black hair even if their mothers were blond. To have 15 kids with black hair except three "trueborn" blondes. It was convincing enough for Ned, Stannis and Jon Arryn.

[Jolene Brown]

All Stannis and Ned have to do is check out all of Robert's bastards and their mothers and see how they all had black hair even if their mothers were blond. To have 15 kids with black hair except three "trueborn" blondes. It was convincing enough for Ned, Stannis and Jon Arryn.

Again, all that indicates is that Robert wasn't the father. It in no way says anything about Jaime being the father.

[Elder Sister]

Again, all that indicates is that Robert wasn't the father. It in no way says anything about Jaime being the father.

We know by Jaime's own admission that he has never been with another woman; he has been faithful to Cersei. We also know through Cersei's POVs and conversations with Sansa that she and Jaime spent a lot of time together. She had three children, with Jaime by her side for every birth. I bet the tongues were wagging over all of this.

I'm sure people had wondered what the nature of their relationship was. They in no way behaved like a typical sibling relationship.

I know they're twisted, but the dynamics of the Lannister family fascinate me. :)

[Jolene Brown]

He's her twin brother, for fuck's sake! Of course we know that they are doing it, but I just don't think any of that is remotely enough to be suspicious in and of itself. He's in the Kingsguard, first of all, and has been since he's 15, so technically, there is nothing at all strange about his not being with a woman - that's just him following the rules of the Kingsguard, as some of them actually do - Barristan, presumably others. They aren't all Lewyn Martells and Arys Oakheart's, and even Arys's thing with Arianne was not normal for him. His job is to guard the king, and she's the queen - of course they spend a lot of time together! He was by her side for the birth? Big deal, he's her twin brother! He didn't spend any undue amount of time with the children, we know that. He's supportive when Robert is a dick? Again, he's her twin brother!

I really wish George had given us either an interaction between Jaime and Cercei from Ned's point of view that was just a touch stranger, or a smidgen more of the thought process that took him from Robert is not the father of Cercei's children to Jaime IS the father, because I just don't think there is anything in-story to indicate how he made that leap. Sure, sometimes you have a gut instinct that there is something going on between two people but we never really got that either. Sure, Stannis was in King's Landing, so maybe he eventually just sort of put two and two together by enough "looks" between Cercei and Jaime adding up over the years to other stuff, but we never saw any of that with Ned. The way it happened with him just seemed like an awfully big leap to me, with not much to prompt it.

[Elder Sister]

Okay, Jolene, settle down, now. Easssy...I am playing some acoustic guitar to soothe your frazzled nerves. :grouphug:

I am just saying that I think it looks strange that her brother was hanging so closely by her side when she's delivering babies. My own brother would be on the opposite end of the state if he thought he was going to be asked to be near me during childbirth.

I do agree with you, though. It's not clear from what George reveals to us how Stannis came to that conclusion. I would really like to know that, but here's my opinion.

Stannis is a pain in the tail, but he's not stupid. You know that these things that we've discussed in this thread - 1. Cersei's children's appearance vs. Robert's bastards' appearance. 2. Jaime's close relationship with her that is actually closer than a normal brother/sister relationship. 3. His marked disinterest in women. Even though he's a member of the Kingsguard, you know this is unusual.

I think all of this adds up to Stannis wondering about the paternity of her children.

[Jolene Brown]

Hee. This is one of my long-time crazymaking topics. It really bugs me. I think because I have a thing about people leaping to conclusions about men and women, that as soon as they're spending more time together than that person thinks it "normal," it must be suspicious. It leads to a lot of unhealthy jealousy and the kind of things people said in that thread on gen chat about how they wouldn't want their partners to have friends of the opposite sex or they would freely choose never to have friends of the opposite sex. Of course in this situation any suspicions are justified, but still... if a twin brother and twin sister can't spend some time together without being suspected of having sex, then where does that leave the rest of us?! :)

I do think it makes more sense that Stannis figured it out. My bigger issue is with Ned, where I really feel a painful lack of set-up.

[Elder Sister]

I hear you in the jumping to conclusions thing. I cannot tell you how many cruddy men I supposedly slept with (as if) in my career.

But, I do think they behaved very suspiciously, all things considered.

I also agree with you on the Ned thing. I never thought that the reader is given enough evidence for Ned to come to the conclusion that Robert is not the children's father, and when he does realize it, why zero in on Jaime?

It would have been helpful if somewhere in there we are given to understand that this has been gossiped about, as it no doubt was. But why not tell us that? I think he dropped the ball there, honestly.

[Jolene Brown]

Yeah, why not have Varys OR Littlefinger drop a hint? They are both screwing with Ned anyway at that point and trying to set him in conflict with the Lannisters, despite each of them saying in other contexts that they want more time.

I think my issue is that I don't think they behaved that suspiciously, at least not from what we're told. The odds of the whole Bran thing were pretty low. I don't think they were actually having sex in the broken tower - he was just on his way there. I think they were in somebody's room - I mean, what are the odds of some kid climbing over and then sitting on a gargoyle to listen to what you're saying? Bran WAS spying on them. Not that he deserved to get thrown out a window, but I don't think they were as careless as people often say.

[Pliskin]

Yeah, why not have Varys OR Littlefinger drop a hint? They are both screwing with Ned anyway at that point and trying to set him in conflict with the Lannisters, despite each of them saying in other contexts that they want more time.

Varys wanted more time.

LF doesn't need more time. He doesn't care about timing. He just screws everyone around when he has the chance to, and if its benefits him. He started all of this when he lied to Catelyn. So, it's very likely that he managed somehow to get the info to Stannis in the first place.

[Jolene Brown]

I was thinking about LF's comment to Sansa about hoping for 4-5 more years, but I guess that was more about letting Cercei screw things up and an in-joke by GRRM than anything else, you're right.

[Dragonreaver]

It's certainly not set up for the reader to think that Bran was spying on them. Not intentionally, anyway. I mean, sure, once he found them there, he stopped to have a look. You would, wouldn't you? But "spying on them" would imply he thought they'd be there any intentionally climbed the tower, which isn't the case.

And as for genetics... need I remind anyone that historically in the real world at this point lots of people thought the earth was flat, prayers cured illness (and curses could inflict them) and most attempts at scientific study ended with you branded a heretic and killed? Genetics as we know it today are far beyond their comprehension. For Ned Stark, the coincidence that fifteen of Robert's kids all had black hair, as did every Baratheon known to exist, except for three, was tantamount to irrefutable evidence that Robert wasn't the father.

I do agree with Jolene, though, that there's very little evidence presented (in public) throughout the books that Cersei and Jamie have a thing going on. Especially not pre-ASoS (ie., not when Ned Stark was alive. At least, not during the time that Ned Stark would've been around them enough to notice it).

We can assume that Tyrion knows, being their brother. Varys probably knows because it's his job. But other than that... I have to agree. "The kids aren't Roberts!" is a fair enough assumption given the evidence presented to him and the technology and science available in the setting. "The kids are Jaime's!" is not.

[Edd fetch me the boo box]

If your kid looks more like the milkman than he looks like you, be suspicious.

Three blonde, green eyed kids who look exactly like Jaime and Cersei. None of these children bear any resemblance to Robert, not a single shared trait, no blue eyes, no black hair.

If it was my best friends kids in question, you bet your ass I'd be investigating.

This is fantasy, real genetics do not apply, and for all intents and purposes, Martin makes Jaime and Cersei out to be identical.

And if I remember, Ned was in the dark until Sansa said something about a Joff giving her kids with golden hair and being nothing like Robert. Its not much harder to connect the rest and realize whose they are. Kingsguard has unlimited access to royalty, especially being her brother, I'm sure Jaime has guarded her door at night. No one else would really have access to her by herself while Robert was alive.

[ghost of Harrenhall]

I love to find out that that they were Lancel's all a long :dunno: