Varys.... what the hell does he want?

[Ser Sam]

I think it is a fair assumption to say he (along with many of the southron characters) aren't yet taking the threat of The Others seriously, so that rules out numerous theories.

I think he simply wants to be powerful and be remembered as a man who held the fate of the realm in his hands.

[Leto]

Whatever it is I'm certain it goes beyond any and all great houses (including targs and blackfyres). I just can't see him playing for petty vengance, and the whole deal with causing war and suffering for decades for the purpose of seating a "good king" on the throne just doesn't add up. The time of suffering now will be about as long as the rule of the 'good king'.... Aegon will produce an hair and said hair will be in the exact same situation as all the current would be throne-claiming nobles.

What is good for the realm, is not about who sits on the throne.

[The Great Cornholio!]

I'm still new here and haven't read all that was posted so if this were discussed before I'm sorry

I want to know what is his endgame and why he is doing what he is doing

my theory is that Varys is the good guy in this story he really wants the good of the realm and he believes that all those lords will only make it worse he doesn't want any lord to sit the iron throne and that's why he planned these wars he only wanted to weaken every house in the realm so he can sit the king he made on the Iron throne I don't care if Aegon was a blackfyre of a Targ or none he is varys creature and he shaped him as he thinks a good king should be .

as to how he did it many acts that happened many acts which lead to the wars could be linked to Varys The Cersi Robert marriage (remember LF plan for a kingslayer II)

Jon Arryn death (with help of LF). Ned Stark's death. The Red Wedding all can be traced back to Varys.

as for his role in Dany's wedding I think he needed Khal Drogo's army for his cause and he knew that he can get rid of the Vesyress and get the army he hoped will put Aegon on the Iron throne I think The Dragons were a surprise to him and missed up his plans.

(Sorry if I missed up the names I listened to the audio books many times but never read the books and English is not my first Language)

Where do you get the Varys orchestrated the Red Wedding. I thought that was a Lannister ploy taking advantage of Robbs stupidity.

Varys wants his twig and berries back, and if he has to take over the world to do it, so be it.

Did he lose both, or just the berries? Anyway I thought he'd get hooked up with Gregors for christmas if he was good enough.

[King Aemon I]

On the contrary, Varys wouldn't want Red Wedding to happen. As long as Robb lives, it is more trouble and bleeding for the bannermen, and making realm more ready to Aegon the Fake..

[Danelle]

I'm still new here and haven't read all that was posted so if this were discussed before I'm sorry

I want to know what is his endgame and why he is doing what he is doing

Possible spoilers

I want to know too...I am afraid that if we are lucky Varys' motives will be revealed in WoW...

Unlike LF, Varys is a mystery. LF has an inferiority complex because he is not tall and handsome like Brandon, or an acclaimed warrior lie Jaime. Even Tyrion Lannister is higher in society than LF and he is a dwarf. So LF has plenty of motives to plot and scheme and use Starks and Lannisters as pawns. But Varys? I doubt that the good of the realm is what he wants. Kevan Lannister was going to set the foundation of a more reasonable reign, until Varys killed him. He claims that he wants to place Aegon at the throne but I hardly think that he cares so much for the Targaryen dynasty. If he did he would have replaced Aerys with Rhaegar. Varys most definately wants power. Aerys chose to listen to him, placing Rhaella, Rhaegar and Tywin aside. Another question is why? Why the power? LF wants revenge for being treated as the smallest of the small lords, for losing Cat twice to highborn lords, Brandon and Eddard Stark. But what drives Varys to do all those things? Perhaps he is a supporter of the Lord of Light and once Aegon is crowned the cult will spread over Westeros and help them defend the land against the Other. Perhaps he is descended from Aerion Targaryen and wants to take the throne that his ancestor deserved. Or perhaps the reason is something that we have no idea about. The last two books offered scarce information regarding the events before and during Robert's rebellion. Like Aerys lusting over Joanna Lannister, or of Rhaegar's intentions. Jaime remembers the last thing that Rhaegar told him before the battle in the Trident. Aerys wouldn't have attended the tourney in Harrenhal if a little bird hadn't warned of Rhaegar's attempt to overthrow him.Probably LF only knows what Game Varys is playing.

[BranBrokeLegs]

Varys' goal is to get his nephew on the Iron Throne and finally accomplish the Blackfyre family dream. I think the Tyrion chapters in early ADWD comes as close as we are going to get in seeing his motivation. It's the only motivation that is consistent with his and (Illyrio's) actions. Targaryen loyalty and seeking out for the good of the realm just don't match with what he's been doing.

[Ser Richard Horpe]

What I don't understand is why Varys was all for assasinating Dany in book 1. I'm worried this will not be answered. And I mean really answered. The whole issue of dany and viserys just doesn't add up with varys and illyrio's plan for Aegon. I'm afraid whatever explanation we are given will be forced, (unless GRRM had always planned Aegon from book 1...which...i'm not entirely sure I buy. nothing against GRRM but i've been burned before by Lost and Harry Potter)

[childofsummer]

:idea: My pet crackpot on this: Varys is one of Aerion's (the Bright Prince / Maekar's son, who got exiled due to events in The Hedge Knight, for non-Dunk & Egg readers) descendants. Varys brought down Aerys because Aerys was one of Aegon V's descendants, and Aegon V's actions precipitated Aerion's exile. I sort of suspect Varys and his little birds fed Aerys's paranoia and helped him descend into madness, because he had to have originally been sane enough to convince Aegon V that he wasn't like Aerion in order for Aegon V to consider him as a viable king.

Varys and Illyrio are related. They are working together to bring down Daenerys, because she is also Aegon V's descendant. They would have happily used Drogo's army to invade Westeros, but they would have afterward somehow gotten rid of Viserys and/or Daenerys - or they would have wed Daenerys to fake Aegon...which leads me to: They want to put fake Aegon on the throne, because he's really one of Aerion's descendants (maybe a child of Illyrio?) - note that Jon Connington only heard about the supposed baby switch long after the fact, when he was a Second Son. </crackpot>

ETA: Varys being an "ys" makes him more than likely a Targ, IMO. It seems to be a name ending that is pretty much reserved for Targs in the series.

[Jem]

What I don't understand is why Varys was all for assasinating Dany in book 1. I'm worried this will not be answered. And I mean really answered. The whole issue of dany and viserys just doesn't add up with varys and illyrio's plan for Aegon. I'm afraid whatever explanation we are given will be forced, (unless GRRM had always planned Aegon from book 1...which...i'm not entirely sure I buy. nothing against GRRM but i've been burned before by Lost and Harry Potter)

Dany's assassination was to be the trigger that forced Drogo to invade Westeros. Then Aegon would ride in with the Golden Company to save the day.

Viserys, via Illyrio, gave Dany to Drogo as a 'gift' and in return Drogo was to give Viserys the 'gift' of invading Westerso. Of course Drogo showed no intention what so ever in paying back his 'gift' and likely Illyrio and Varys knew that would be the case. The assassination (or attempted assassination as it turned out being) was to force Drogo to invade.

And as the assassination was controlled by Varys, he could choose when to pull the trigger. It was Varys who fed Robert's paranoia over the pregnant Targaryen princess in the first place. And the assassination had to come from Robert - it needed to be an 'official' command from one monarch attacking another monarch - an act of war - and Drogo would have no other choice but to avenge his honour and attack Robert.

I think that the plan changed from an acutal assassination to an assassination attempt once Dany became pregnant. The reason being is that this gives Drogo two reasons to want to attack Westeros - to avenge the slight on his honour that an attack on his wife caused, and secondly to have the opportunity to give the throne of Westeros to his son. Two motivations for the price of one. Plus that way, Dany is still around to give to Aegon if need be (but if she did died in battle or in childbirth or some other way, well, meh, doesn't matter, she has served her purpose anyway).

Quite clearly Dany and Viserys were never Varys and Illyrio's first plan. They were last minute additions to the long established Aegon plan. Why waste perfectly good, though thoroughly surplus, Targaryens by simply killing them when you can milk them for all they are worth and then dispose of them?

[eRome]

To serve the realm. He's a Targaryen Loyalist and anyone who says he's not just isn't reading carefully enough. Remember, he's the one who told Aerys NOT to open his gates to Tywin Lannister during the Rebellion. He spirited away Aegon before the Lannisters killed the royal family (whether or not this is really Aegon is still up for debate, I personally think it's not.) He's been working with Mopatis to strengthen Viserys and Denerys in the East so that they can march on Westeros. When Viserys is killed, he dispatches Aegon to court Dany.

Back in Westeros he frees Tyrion Lannister from the Black Cells and shows him the way to his father's chambers (he had to know Tyrion meant to kill him) to reek even more havoc. Then we get the great ADWD epilouge where he kill Kevan Lannister and Pycelle, so that there's even more chaos...all ready to be extinguished by Dany or Aegon....or both.

[tyrions sliced nose]

To serve the realm. He's a Targaryen Loyalist and anyone who says he's not just isn't reading carefully enough. Remember, he's the one who told Aerys NOT to open his gates to Tywin Lannister during the Rebellion. He spirited away Aegon before the Lannisters killed the royal family (whether or not this is really Aegon is still up for debate, I personally think it's not.) He's been working with Mopatis to strengthen Viserys and Denerys in the East so that they can march on Westeros. When Viserys is killed, he dispatches Aegon to court Dany.

Back in Westeros he frees Tyrion Lannister from the Black Cells and shows him the way to his father's chambers (he had to know Tyrion meant to kill him) to reek even more havoc. Then we get the great ADWD epilouge where he kill Kevan Lannister and Pycelle, so that there's even more chaos...all ready to be extinguished by Dany or Aegon....or both.

I dont think anyone is denying that hes a targ follower, the question is why is he?

Why is it so important for him to have who he wants on the iron throne.

I dunno its the biggest question i have, theres so much mystery about the guy.

[The Great Cornholio!]

On the contrary, Varys wouldn't want Red Wedding to happen. As long as Robb lives, it is more trouble and bleeding for the bannermen, and making realm more ready to Aegon the Fake..

I concur. The Red Wedding was a hastily planned event, otherwise it sure wouldnt have gone down the way it did.

[BranBrokeLegs]

I dont think anyone is denying that hes a targ follower, the question is why is he?

Why is it so important for him to have who he wants on the iron throne.

I dunno its the biggest question i have, theres so much mystery about the guy.

Umm...I think quite a few people deny he's a Targ follower and put forward him being a Blackfyre supporter. If he was a targ follower, why prey on Aerys' paranoia and push him further into madness. Why leave Viserys and Dany to wonder the free cities for 15 years without doing anything to help them. Illyrio only takes them in when the time is getting near for Aegon to make his appearance. And then he sends them out to die in the Dothraki Sea. To paraphrase erome, if you think he is a targ supporter, you are not reading close enough.

[Independent George]

I don't know what game is playing, but I'm seeing a lot of bad arguments in this thread.

1. Supposing that varys is supporting Dany doesn't make him a Targaryen loyalist; it just means that her indisputable claim makes her a useful tool for him to control.

2. Supposing that Sera was a Blackfyre, that doesn't mean Varys is a Blackfyre loyalist. It just means that Aegon's supposed claim makes him a useful tool for him to control.

3. Supposing that Varys really does serve the realm, what he wants isn't just peace - it's a lasting peace. He wants a good king - not a line of madmen, or a drunken fool, or weak and pliable boy controlled by his sociopathic mother. He spent nearly two decades shaping Aegon into the kind of King he believes in, with the hope of sustaining that over generations.

4. Supposing that Varys and Illyrio are running their old scam on a grand scale (Varys steals the kingdom, Illyrio is paid to get it back), still doesn't make his motivations any more transparent. What the heck does Varys even want with all of that money? Illyrio is already the magister of Pentos, and they both (presumably) have more money than they can spend. What's driving him to take such risks? What constitutes "Victory"?

The point is, we don't actually know any of these things - we can only guess. Worse, they're not all mutually exclusive, so it can actually be a combination of those things. That's what make Varys so unpredictable - we don't know what he truly wants in the first place.

[Independent George]

What I don't understand is why Varys was all for assasinating Dany in book 1. I'm worried this will not be answered. And I mean really answered. The whole issue of dany and viserys just doesn't add up with varys and illyrio's plan for Aegon. I'm afraid whatever explanation we are given will be forced, (unless GRRM had always planned Aegon from book 1...which...i'm not entirely sure I buy. nothing against GRRM but i've been burned before by Lost and Harry Potter)

He wasn't in favor of it - he publicly agreed with Robert and carried out his orders, but then specifically warned Jorah in his letter that he wanted Dany watched, but not harmed.

To serve the realm. He's a Targaryen Loyalist and anyone who says he's not just isn't reading carefully enough. Remember, he's the one who told Aerys NOT to open his gates to Tywin Lannister during the Rebellion. He spirited away Aegon before the Lannisters killed the royal family (whether or not this is really Aegon is still up for debate, I personally think it's not.) He's been working with Mopatis to strengthen Viserys and Denerys in the East so that they can march on Westeros. When Viserys is killed, he dispatches Aegon to court Dany.

We don't know that he's a Targaryen loyalist. The fact that he supports a Targaryen doesn't make him a Targaryen loyalist - it could just make him a puppet master who finds the Targaryens useful. His motivations behind it are entirely his own, and "serving the realm" doesn't require a Targaryen - only someone with a claim he can use.

[Stark@heart]

Varys is a puppetmaster. He wants to be the one in complete control.

He knows everyone's secrets and he judges them. He thinks he knows what's best for the Realm and everyone in it but YG isn't all that great, once we get to see him and I don't think he'll continue to be the perfect cat's paw to rule through that Varys intended.

And what about the threat of the Others? How can Varys just ignored everything that's happening at the Wall?

If he has no spies or little birds in the North, then his plans are doomed. That doesn't seem like a great spy master to me - leaving the largest part of the Realm unsupervisied and out of his control.

I bet Petyr knows what's going down.

[carmela28]

Well, I dare say that the best thing for the realm would be peace, especially with the Others' upcoming attack looming over Westeros. If Varys says he's working for the realm, he'll want peace, right? But he's not quite working on bringing peace to the realm, he's plotting and scheming to bring as much chaos as possible to the realm, in order to gain support if Aegon makes his big move in Westeros. Before that, he was taking care Aerys got even more paranoid, so that Rhaegar couldn't overthrow him. Rhaegar, the man who would (probably) be a better King Robert and Aerys ever were.

That's why he's so confusing. He says one thing and does the complete opposite thing.

Well said. To us, serving the realm = peace but I'm not sure that's how Varys views it. I think he wants something more. If not, this is a crazy way to go about achieving it. We will have another coup and perhaps another king murdered so that Aegon can assume his "rightful" place. This doesn't sound like "serving the realm."

Whatever it is I'm certain it goes beyond any and all great houses (including targs and blackfyres). I just can't see him playing for petty vengance, and the whole deal with causing war and suffering for decades for the purpose of seating a "good king" on the throne just doesn't add up. The time of suffering now will be about as long as the rule of the 'good king'.... Aegon will produce an hair and said hair will be in the exact same situation as all the current would be throne-claiming nobles.

What is good for the realm, is not about who sits on the throne.

Exactly - how does his plan differ from what has come before? Every king and his supporters believe that they will be different (better) than the previous king. It hasn't really worked out that way.

The point is, we don't actually know any of these things - we can only guess. Worse, they're not all mutually exclusive, so it can actually be a combination of those things. That's what make Varys so unpredictable - we don't know what he truly wants in the first place.

That's also what makes him so dangerous...because we don't know what he truly wants.

I have a few questions:

- Why does he assume that the high lords will support Aegon? Some of them may, such as the Tyrells, as long as their interests are met. But some are bound to be suspicious about the sudden appearance of the Targaryen heir and will oppose him. Certainly the Northern lords won't bend the knee. Nor Stannis.

- And what will Varys' nemesis in the Vale do once Aegon appears?

- Once Aegon assumes the Iron Throne, what's next? Surely Varys has thought long-term. Does he want to wield power behind the scenes?

- And how does Dany, in her current situation, fit into his plans? I agree that Dany and Viserys were always a back-up to Aegon. But Dany is now a very real threat; she has survived, she has dragons and she is amassing an army. Varys knows about the dragons and about some of the players headed her way. He has to believe that, at some point, she will stop nibbling figs and drag her butt over to Westeros. And even if she dies, what are his thoughts about the dragons and who will control them?

[Stark Wolf]

This may be way to simple. Varys and Illyrio have risen in power together over many years. Power is the key. They want to rule the seven kingdoms. They have been grooming Aegon (I think fake) for years and when he seemed ready Varys statred disrupting status quo. Meanwhile Illyrio is disposing of Viserys and Dany. Dany becomes important to them only when she hatches the dragons because they need the dragons for Aegon and themselves. Whoever controls the dragons has the power. Once they have the dragons they can rid themselves of Dany. Aegon is their creature (they believe) and can be controled. They have no reason to believe Dany is controlable. To date Vary and LF are winning the game they are both brilliant players. Future evolution will likely play against their plans and control. No doubt Varys is playing for his vision of whats best for the realm.

[tyrions sliced nose]

Varys is a puppetmaster. He wants to be the one in complete control.

He knows everyone's secrets and he judges them. He thinks he knows what's best for the Realm and everyone in it but YG isn't all that great, once we get to see him and I don't think he'll continue to be the perfect cat's paw to rule through that Varys intended.

And what about the threat of the Others? How can Varys just ignored everything that's happening at the Wall?

If he has no spies or little birds in the North, then his plans are doomed. That doesn't seem like a great spy master to me - leaving the largest part of the Realm unsupervisied and out of his control.

I bet Petyr knows what's going down.

How do you know he wants to be in complete control? What if someone is controlling Varys. We know nothing which is what makes this so frustrating.

George has something in Varys that hes not sharing yet and its big,

For all i we know maybe the great other controls varys.

For me its the main thing i need answers too for the series.

[Ser Richard Horpe]

He wasn't in favor of it - he publicly agreed with Robert and carried out his orders, but then specifically warned Jorah in his letter that he wanted Dany watched, but not harmed.

this is debatable. by telling robert about the pregnancy he pretty much is for the assasination. also ned stark tells varys to stop the execution so this could have caused varys to send another urgent message warning jorah, OR Jorah could have even acted on his own accord after falling in love with dany.

Dany's assassination was to be the trigger that forced Drogo to invade Westeros. Then Aegon would ride in with the Golden Company to save the day.

Viserys, via Illyrio, gave Dany to Drogo as a 'gift' and in return Drogo was to give Viserys the 'gift' of invading Westerso. Of course Drogo showed no intention what so ever in paying back his 'gift' and likely Illyrio and Varys knew that would be the case. The assassination (or attempted assassination as it turned out being) was to force Drogo to invade.

And as the assassination was controlled by Varys, he could choose when to pull the trigger. It was Varys who fed Robert's paranoia over the pregnant Targaryen princess in the first place. And the assassination had to come from Robert - it needed to be an 'official' command from one monarch attacking another monarch - an act of war - and Drogo would have no other choice but to avenge his honour and attack Robert.

I think that the plan changed from an acutal assassination to an assassination attempt once Dany became pregnant. The reason being is that this gives Drogo two reasons to want to attack Westeros - to avenge the slight on his honour that an attack on his wife caused, and secondly to have the opportunity to give the throne of Westeros to his son. Two motivations for the price of one. Plus that way, Dany is still around to give to Aegon if need be (but if she did died in battle or in childbirth or some other way, well, meh, doesn't matter, she has served her purpose anyway).

Quite clearly Dany and Viserys were never Varys and Illyrio's first plan. They were last minute additions to the long established Aegon plan. Why waste perfectly good, though thoroughly surplus, Targaryens by simply killing them when you can milk them for all they are worth and then dispose of them?

i understand this is the theory kind of floating around, but this is so unsatisfying. using the dothraki to invade first then have golden company come in with aegon. i don't know how well this plan is thought out. one targareyen shows up with hordes of bloodthirsty dothraki and causes devastation to westeros, wait, well here's another targ with greedy mercenaries coming in...uh. yikes...

meanwhile, varys wanted to prevent the war in the riverlands when he meant to have ned confess and be sent to the wall. i don't care what anyone says, varys wanted to send ned back and had no idea joff would call an audible and hack off the hand's head (and if varys was behind this then he's just evil and played mind games with ned?), why? isnt the conflict the best thing that could have happened for their plan?