R+L=J v.32

[Black Wolf Smith]

I take a day off and this thread blows up.

IMO

People who likely know R + L = J- Howland Reed, Bloodraven, Bran, maybe Benjen

People who know some but not all - Wylla's, JR, MR, maybe Benjen

Thats it, nobody eles knows. Ned would not talk about it with anyone eles. You know the whole some secrets thing...

I for 1 believe (maybe on purpose) that there are more then 1 Wylla. There are many people in this story with the same names. I forget what it is but there is a black smith, a farmer, stable hand and a fisherman all with the same first name. IIIRC it even talks about it in the story at one point. I think Ned, may have gotten a second wet nurse with the same name to confuse things more.

@where whores go

I guess you missed the whole if Stannis knew.

In the Theon the crows all seem to be trying to get Theon to the trees. I think Bran is wanting to say something, and can only do it, if they come close to the trees. I don't know that Bran will tell this, but he does seem to want to tell them someting.

[Budj]

BWS

I actually think they mean to blood sacrifice Theon to save Jon

Not sure what they would say to Theon that could save him?

[Vany Targaryen]

I was thinking, remember Dany's vision about a blue flower on ice wall? So maybe he won't have to prove himself to her because she will realise that he is indeed Targaryen because of that vision, maybe once they meet (if that EVER happens) he will just tell her the story about Lyanna and Rhaegar and the blue flowers... And before that he will find out about his parents from H Reed or Bran perhaps... She didn't get this vision for no reason

And i'm just reading AGOT again, and i just came across a line from Ned when he remembered Lyanna telling him how she doesn't trust Robert. And then he remembered Rhaegar, and asked himself whether Rhaegar was sleeping around with whores and women. And he got to the conclusion that he wouldn't. So, if Ned thought thar Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna and dishonored her by sleeping with her just like that without marrying her, why would he think so high of him then?

I believe that Rhaegar and Lyanna married in front of a tree and that Ned knows that, and that Bran will see it someday...

Sorry if my english isn't perfect and if someone else already wrote this, i'm new at the forum and didn't read all the posts about this theme...

[sagaz]

I was thinking, remember Dany's vision about a blue flower on ice wall? So maybe he won't have to prove himself to her because she will realise that he is indeed Targaryen because of that vision, maybe once they meet (if that EVER happens) he will just tell her the story about Lyanna and Rhaegar and the blue flowers... And before that he will find out about his parents from H Reed or Bran perhaps... She didn't get this vision for no reason

And i'm just reading AGOT again, and i just came across a line from Ned when he remembered Lyanna telling him how she doesn't trust Robert. And then he remembered Rhaegar, and asked himself whether Rhaegar was sleeping around with whores and women. And he got to the conclusion that he wouldn't. So, if Ned thought thar Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna and dishonored her by sleeping with her just like that without marrying her, why would he think so high of him then?

I believe that Rhaegar and Lyanna married in front of a tree and that Ned knows that, and that Bran will see it someday...

Sorry if my english isn't perfect and if someone else already wrote this, i'm new at the forum and didn't read all the posts about this theme...

I agree, and don't forget the statue of Lyanna in the crypts - statues in the cypts: only for Lords and Kings- I always tought that Ned had one for Lyanna because she was royal, and one of Brandon so anybody gets suspicious. Bran says that Ned had made the statues because he loved them so much but I don't buy it.

[Silent Sparrow]

I agree, and don't forget the statue of Lyanna in the crypts - statues in the cypts: only for Lords and Kings- I always tought that Ned had one for Lyanna because she was royal, and one of Brandon so anybody gets suspicious. Bran says that Ned had made the statues because he loved them so much but I don't buy it.

I thought that it was only the Kings in the North and the Lords of Winterfell that got the sword forged and laid across their knees. If they only carved statues for the Lords and the Kings, then why would GRRM point that out in specific?

Here's the quote:

By ancient custom an iron longsword had been laid across the lap of each who had been Lord of Winterfell, to keep the vengeful spirits in their crypts. The oldest had long ago rusted away to nothing, leaving only a few red stains where the metal had rested on stone. Ned wondered if that meant those ghosts were free to roam the castle now. He hoped not. The first Lords of Winterfell had been men hard as the land they ruled. In the centuries before the Dragonlords came over the sea, they had sworn allegiance to no man, styling themselves the Kings in the North. AGOT, Chapter 4, Ned's POV

[Vany Targaryen]

I never thought of the statues that way, but it could work... Tough Ned is very honorable man and he might put Brandon there because he was supposed to be Lord of Winterfell instead of himself, and yes, Lyanna maybe because she was royal and from Winterfell - it would be a presedan i think, since a Stark woman had never been a queen of the Seven Kingdoms... (at least as i know), so there is no rule for putting or not putting the queen from winterfell in the crypts...

Anyway i'm really supportive of this theory of R+L=J, cause all the evidence are there, but they are hidden very well to those readers that don't pay great deal of attention as some of us do ;) My first thoughts were that Jon's mum was Ashara Dayne because it seemed so obvious, and it still seems more obvious than Lyanna, cause Barristan said that she was Ned's lover. But i don't buy that, i think it wouldn't be such a secret if his mum was Ashara

[sagaz]

I thought that it was only the Kings in the North and the Lords of Winterfell that got the sword forged and laid across their knees. If they only carved statues for the Lords and the Kings, then why would GRRM point that out in specific?

Here's the quote:

By ancient custom an iron longsword had been laid across the lap of each who had been Lord of Winterfell, to keep the vengeful spirits in their crypts. The oldest had long ago rusted away to nothing, leaving only a few red stains where the metal had rested on stone. Ned wondered if that meant those ghosts were free to roam the castle now. He hoped not. The first Lords of Winterfell had been men hard as the land they ruled. In the centuries before the Dragonlords came over the sea, they had sworn allegiance to no man, styling themselves the Kings in the North. AGOT, Chapter 4, Ned's POV

you responded that with your quote:

By ancient custom an iron longsword had been laid across the lap of each who had been Lord of Winterfell, to keep the vengeful spirits in their crypts. The oldest had long ago rusted away to nothing, leaving only a few red stains where the metal had rested on stone. Ned wondered if that meant those ghosts were free to roam the castle now. He hoped not. The first Lords of Winterfell had been men hard as the land they ruled. In the centuries before the Dragonlords came over the sea, they had sworn allegiance to no man, styling themselves the Kings in the North

Bran, Osha and the Reeds took some swords when they left the crypts... Maybe they freed some Starks of old?

"And there's my grandfather, Lord Rickard, who was beheaded by Mad King Aerys. His daughter Lyanna and his son Brandon are in the tombs beside him. Not me, another Brandon, my father's brother.

They're not supposed to have statues, that's only for the lords and the kings, but my father loved them so much he had them done."

"The maid's a fair one," Osha said.

Edit to add: That's in the last Bran chapter of aGoT

[Lady_Catspaw]

I've just been re-reading GoT and came across the scene where Ned meets Catelyn in the brothel and the following quote;

He [Ned] could still hear Sansa pleading, as Lyanna had pleaded once.

And that struck me as odd; why was Lyanna pleading for a life when Ned found her? Wasn't she already dying from the fever?

I wasn't sure if this was used as evidence for the R+L=J case and just wondered what the general thoughts about this are.

[Silent Sparrow]

I concede your point. I had forgotten about that Bran quote. It seems a little contradictory to me, but ok. I will assume that GRRM will reveal all in time.

And as for Lyanna pleading, I believe the general consensus is that she was pleading for Ned to keep Jon a secret or whatever the specifics of his promise are. I don't believe she was pleading for her life.

[Black Wolf Smith]

BWS

I actually think they mean to blood sacrifice Theon to save Jon

Not sure what they would say to Theon that could save him?

Well there is a theory that Bran will skinchange in to Theon, which I don't buy. But besides "I am Bran Stark, I am not dead" there all kinds of things that a Tree could say to save Theon life. I think that a tree talking, in and of itself, might be enough for Stannis to stop and listen, at least for a while, but that just MO.

[SerLoin]

and what might that tree say? "Hey you let go of those apples!"

[Budj]

Well there is a theory that Bran will skinchange in to Theon, which I don't buy. But besides "I am Bran Stark, I am not dead" there all kinds of things that a Tree could say to save Theon life. I think that a tree talking, in and of itself, might be enough for Stannis to stop and listen, at least for a while, but that just MO.

True - I hadn't considered the fact that Bran successfully got a present time whisper out to Theon in the godswood of WF... Stannis sure didn't find it peculiar that the ravens were saying "tree" and "Theon" prior to Asha suggesting taking Theon to the weirwood though so I have to wonder if he would be listening...haha. But would that be enough to save his life? He may not be a kinslayer, but he is a turn cloak and caused the ransacking of WF. The news of Bran and Rickon also caused Robb to be distraught and seek comfort in a woman whom he broke his marriage contract too. So Theon still had a hand to play in the downfall of the North's Stark King (Robb).

Short of Bran full blown making his face appear in a tree in front of all of them and talking out the situation I'm not fully convinced that Theon will be safe from Stannis' sword.

[Lady Octarina]

I was thinking, remember Dany's vision about a blue flower on ice wall? So maybe he won't have to prove himself to her because she will realise that he is indeed Targaryen because of that vision, maybe once they meet (if that EVER happens) he will just tell her the story about Lyanna and Rhaegar and the blue flowers... And before that he will find out about his parents from H Reed or Bran perhaps... She didn't get this vision for no reason

Well, your guess is a possibility, but it's also likely that she got that vision for the readers' sake (another clue to put together in the R+L=J enigma) and will simply ignore/forget/misinterpret it and fight against Jon if he claims the throne anyway, believing he's the mummer's dragon. I would be happier if that happened, and Jon warged into her favorite dragon and made him barbecue and eat her. :devil:

[Scarlet Seastar]

I don't think Dany would do that for a few reasons.

The only people who look too closely at Jon are Tyrion, Catelyn, and Maester Aemon. And Maester Aemon was blind, Catelyn and Tyrion didn't meet Rhaegar, and I don't know about Stannis.

My point is that no one that knew Rhaegar has been in the vicinity of Jon, or have taken a special interest in him.

I think that this is part of the reason why Ned didn't want to take him to KL. Too many people there, and Varys would have seen some of Rhaegar in Jon.

At the WF feast, Jon says that when the royal party passes by him, no one pays him any attention-certainly not Cercei who seemed to have been obsessed a bit with him. As for King Bob, well, if he noticed something, it had been clouded by how much Jon looks like a Stark, not like Rhaegar.

Now back to Dany. I think she would see something of Rhaegar in Jon. And that's why she'll know.

[Elric the White Wolf]

I've just been re-reading GoT and came across the scene where Ned meets Catelyn in the brothel and the following quote;

And that struck me as odd; why was Lyanna pleading for a life when Ned found her? Wasn't she already dying from the fever?

I wasn't sure if this was used as evidence for the R+L=J case and just wondered what the general thoughts about this are.

I have interpreted that to mean that Sansa's pleading for Lady's life reminded Ned of Lyanna's pleading for Jon's life ("Promise me Ned" -- asking Ned to save and protect Jon). I think Ned was traumatized in that moment -- knowing that he could not save Lady, and he was reminded of his promise to Lyanna to protect Jon's life. The promise that has haunted him for so many years.

[Vany Targaryen]

^yes elric i think you are right about that :)

Well, dany was born after Rhaegar died, and everything she knows is from the stories Viserys or Jorah or ser Barristan told her. So i dont know how she would see anything of Rhaegar in him, cause Aegon is the one who looks like him, and Jon isn't, at least not in the outside.

It would be interesting on how will she react on either of them, but so far she has kept a good eye on her prophecies, so i don't think she will forget it, maybe just missread it...who knows.. All i know is that GRRM doesn't really do anything for the readers only, he follows his story and that's all...

Let's not forget there was supposed to be lesser books in the time of ACOK, so he probably gave all those prophecies cause he thought he would come to those happenings sooner... Anyway i dont think she will toss away that part, especially if Jon is going to be able to work with a dragon :)

[targaryensarebamf]

I'm so sure that GRRM is gonna just hit us with the fact that Jon Snow is the legitimate child of Hodor and Old Nan.

No joke.

[Vany Targaryen]

Hodor is Old Nan's grandson, or even grangrandson...so that would be quite impossible sry bro :P

[FanTasy]

I was thinking, remember Dany's vision about a blue flower on ice wall? So maybe he won't have to prove himself to her because she will realise that he is indeed Targaryen because of that vision, maybe once they meet (if that EVER happens) he will just tell her the story about Lyanna and Rhaegar and the blue flowers... And before that he will find out about his parents from H Reed or Bran perhaps... She didn't get this vision for no reason

And i'm just reading AGOT again, and i just came across a line from Ned when he remembered Lyanna telling him how she doesn't trust Robert. And then he remembered Rhaegar, and asked himself whether Rhaegar was sleeping around with whores and women. And he got to the conclusion that he wouldn't. So, if Ned thought thar Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna and dishonored her by sleeping with her just like that without marrying her, why would he think so high of him then?

I believe that Rhaegar and Lyanna married in front of a tree and that Ned knows that, and that Bran will see it someday...

Sorry if my english isn't perfect and if someone else already wrote this, i'm new at the forum and didn't read all the posts about this theme...

Isn't the exact phrasing that Ned thinks Rhaegar did not visit brothels?

Men can be promiscuous without ever setting foot in a brothel.

ETA English is not my native tongue too ... and welcome on the forum. Have fun!

[Cold-King]

When you think about it, House Berantheon starting with Robert and the sack, and then later have caused a lot of grief for the Starks, at least inadvertently.

Theres the incident in Winterfell with Robert taking Cersei's side, demanding that Ned kill Lady, (and royal, or not they were guests of Winterfell and behaving badly), Renly vs, Stannis, and now Stannis and Co. at the Wall, and who knows how much trouble Mel is causing on behalf of Stannis.

Then add to that, Jon finds out the WHOLE truth about his parents, that they loved each other and what Robert did to Rhaegar, as well as what happened to his half sibings during the sack.

(I know that Jon will be devastated that he's not Neds son, but he may be furious at just how much misery the Berantheons have caused his family- certainly as much as the Lannisters),

As for Lady getting killed, i know it happened whilst on the road in the TV show but i cant remember for certain if it happened in the books but im pretty sure it did.

But it does make sense in a way that Jon could be angry at the baratheons for the strife hes caused Him by killing his father, and later, having to live as a bastard and be forever shunned and looked down upon. That being said, Robert still believed he killed Rheagar to avenge Lyanna, Jons mother who he seemed to love very much.