[Book Spoilers] Talisa

[Jolene Brown]

_{I think she'll be killed off too, or perhaps never mentioned again.}

_{That wasn't her purpose. She replaced Jeyne Westerling because they needed a character that could follow Robb around for a bit to develop a romance. What they did not want was the Jeyne Westerling from the books, who shows up only when Robb conquers that castle and sleeps with her. No romance, just grief sex. It was a terrible plot in the book and it would have been a terrible plot in the tv show. D&D *know* that there isn't a fanbase for Talisa because they're well aware that Talisa would become hated since her marriage to Robb Stark is the catalyst for the red wedding, and astute viewers know that. So of course they're going to hate her. They would have hated Jeyne Westerling (and Robb) too if they had used that plot instead.}

Since when do people hate Jeyne Westerling? I don't think I've ever seen anyone express negative feelings towards her at all - if anything, there are all these bizarre theories about how she has escaped and she is pregnant and so forth. People don't even hate Roslin (for the most part), who had a much more important role in the Red Wedding. The idea that Talisa is only hated b/c she is the catalyst for the red wedding is inconsistent with almost everything I've ever read about why people don't like her. They think she's out-of-place and that she doesn't belong in the story, that she engages in behavior which George has specifically said he doesn't really like seeing in fantasy, that she is like the "spunky peasant girl who talks tough to the king," whether she is secretly high-born or not. No one cares about her role in the Red Wedding.

[Khal-a-bunga]

Even if the main reaction is indifference, then she's still failed as a character because Talisa presumably replaced Jeyne Westerling because D+D didn't think she was interesting enough. So the fact that there's no evidence of any substantial fanbase means she failed in her purpose.

Unless their purpose was to create someone more interesting than a cardboard cut-out. In which case, they succeeded.

[protar]

Unless their purpose was to create someone more interesting than a cardboard cut-out. In which case, they succeeded.

In your view maybe. But if the majority of the viewership either hates her or is entirely indifferent to her, they've failed in that respect to. And personally I don't find Talisa interesting at all. Jeyne is atleast consistent with the world Martin created. I'd rather take a boring character over one that breaks my willing suspension of disbelief.

[Khal-a-bunga]

In your view maybe. But if the majority of the viewership either hates her or is entirely indifferent to her, they've failed in that respect to. And personally I don't find Talisa interesting at all. Jeyne is atleast consistent with the world Martin created. I'd rather take a boring character over one that breaks my willing suspension of disbelief.

I know you would, and that's fine, but let's stop pretending that these discussion sites are any kind of barometer on what the general audience thinks. We all love Hodor, but I doubt many non-readers (who don't frequent message boards to discuss the show) would have the slightest clue who that is or why we love him. In fact, they probably don't care. So is D&D's adaptation of Hodor a failure? I imagine that most here would say it is not (due in large part to the fact that it's consistent with the books).

You, and other posters, can claim that the "vast majority" dislike Talisa until you're blue in the face; myself, and other posters who like the change, can say the opposite until we're blue in the face, as well. The fact of the matter is, we're all basing our opinions on circumstantial (at best) evidence, and the end result is the same - a bunch of Smurfs end up treading over the same ground, ad nauseum, to the benefit of... None of us! Our own opinion is all that really matters here, and I think we've all covered that (ad nauseum).

[Jolene Brown]

I know you would, and that's fine, but let's stop pretending that these discussion sites are any kind of barometer on what the general audience thinks. We all love Hodor, but I doubt many non-readers (who don't frequent message boards to discuss the show) would have the slightest clue who that is or why we love him. In fact, they probably don't care. So is D&D's adaptation of Hodor a failure? I imagine that most here would say it is not (due in large part to the fact that it's consistent with the books).

You, and other posters, can claim that the "vast majority" dislike Talisa until you're blue in the face; myself, and other posters who like the change, can say the opposite until we're blue in the face, as well. The fact of the matter is, we're all basing our opinions on circumstantial (at best) evidence, and the end result is the same - a bunch of Smurfs end up treading over the same ground, ad nauseum, to the benefit of... None of us! Our own opinion is all that really matters here, and I think we've all covered that (ad nauseum).

So why are you still posting about it? If you think the conversation is over, stop participating!

[Khal-a-bunga]

So why are you still posting about it? If you think the conversation is over, stop participating!

Will do. You guys have fun.

[deleted01]

Talisa (just the name makes me think of the scummy N Dubz woman)

This :rofl:

Talisa is a completely ridiculous change. I agree with all of those who said that they'd have preferred to see the storyline pan out as it was in the books. I really see no reason as to why they've changed the character and the arc so much, and I'd like an explanation to be honest. Why they seem to think they can write a better storyline than GRRM is beyond me, because clearly they can't.

[Brandon Martell]

If D+D have done their market research on whether people like Talisa they'll bring her to the RW, and swiftly kill her off. Most likely they haven't realised that no likes her and she'll be taken to the RW only to kick ass and take names, probably taking the place of Dacey Mormont. She'll then replace Cat as Lady Stoneheart.

There is absolutely no way D&D would do this. Jeyne is still alive and probably still has a role to play in the story as Robb's widow, and Stoneheart can't be anyone other than unCat. And who says no one likes her? Maybe few like her on the forums, but this is a forum for people who read the books. I actually like the character a lot, and I'm not the only one.

Again, as I said above, I've seen plenty of dislike elsewhere, and most particularly, even in the absence of dislike, little affection for the character or the coupling. The problem isn't that she isn't demure and compliant, it's that the whole storyline seems like it comes from a different show, or at times, a romantic comedy set-up (although not tone). And beyond that, people just aren't embracing her or the coupling. Tyrion/Shae seems to have worked out well, Jaime/Brienne already have people sort of excited about the possibility of them getting together, Khal Drogo/Dany were totally beloved. And plenty of romances that are presented as a bad idea have huge fanbases. This coupling just isn't getting people excited. And since the whole stated point of changing the character was to supposedly give people a reason to care about the romance and get invested it, then it seems like something has gone wrong.

Who are these "people"? People who are here on the forums, that have read the books and don't accept the change?

[protar]

I know you would, and that's fine, but let's stop pretending that these discussion sites are any kind of barometer on what the general audience thinks. We all love Hodor, but I doubt many non-readers (who don't frequent message boards to discuss the show) would have the slightest clue who that is or why we love him. In fact, they probably don't care. So is D&D's adaptation of Hodor a failure? I imagine that most here would say it is not (due in large part to the fact that it's consistent with the books).

You, and other posters, can claim that the "vast majority" dislike Talisa until you're blue in the face; myself, and other posters who like the change, can say the opposite until we're blue in the face, as well. The fact of the matter is, we're all basing our opinions on circumstantial (at best) evidence, and the end result is the same - a bunch of Smurfs end up treading over the same ground, ad nauseum, to the benefit of... None of us! Our own opinion is all that really matters here, and I think we've all covered that (ad nauseum).

Well personally the non-readers I know think Hodor's pretty cool but I'll admit it's not really relevant.

But anyway the point is, that the the anti-talisa group has evidence that Talisa is an unpopular character. The 2 or 3 Talisa-fans have no evidence whatsoever that she's popular. As I've said many times before, just because the internet isn't the most reliable means of gathering information on people's opinions, it's still not entirely useless. It can still be extrapolated and used to estimate opinions in the real world. I've given my reasonings for why this is so, but so far no one has been able to tell me why it doesn't work, they've just ignored me.

[Brandon Martell]

But anyway the point is, that the the anti-talisa group has evidence that Talisa is an unpopular character. The 2 or 3 Talisa-fans have no evidence whatsoever that she's popular. As I've said many times before, just because the internet isn't the most reliable means of gathering information on people's opinions, it's still not entirely useless. It can still be extrapolated and used to estimate opinions in the real world. I've given my reasonings for why this is so, but so far no one has been able to tell me why it doesn't work, they've just ignored me.

This is the case on the forums, a forum for ASOIAF book readers who've seen Jeyne and liked her. That's only a small fraction of the show viewers.

[ogremage]

I like Talisa the character. I think their chemistry with Robb was very good, certainly seemed better to me than Drogo/Dany. Their love scene was one of the best done in the show. I think having her grieving after the RW will add to its impact.

I have reservations about whether the actual changes from Jeyne to Talisa were necessary and will have an impact on the plot. E.g., she no longer has a mother that has all the time been selling Robb out to Lannisters. I would take all this as a sign that Jeyne's not very important to future books, to the degree that replacing her with someone from Volantis makes no difference.

But then again, I have way more reservations about Tyrion/Shae relationship, as at this point she no longer seems the sort of girl who would insta-betray him, then sleep with Tywin.

But anyway the point is, that the the anti-talisa group has evidence that Talisa is an unpopular character. The 2 or 3 Talisa-fans have no evidence whatsoever that she's popular.

What bloody evidence? You are just excessively vocal in your claims. That does not count as evidence.

Stop being delusional please and projecting your biases to other people.

[Brandon Martell]

I have reservations about whether the actual changes from Jeyne to Talisa were necessary and will have an impact on the plot. E.g., she no longer has a mother that has all the time been selling Robb out to Lannisters. I would take all this as a sign that Jeyne's not very important to future books, to the degree that replacing her with someone from Volantis makes no difference.

Maybe this means Jeyne's role, whether small or big, won't be affected by her house.

[deleted01]

What bloody evidence? You are just excessively vocal in your claims. That does not count as evidence.

Stop being delusional please and projecting your biases to other people.

So do a poll, do some research. Talisa is a ridiculous character, a ridiculous change, and being delusional doesn't even enter into this. D&D had a perfectly good storyline given to them by GRRM in the books. Why change it? Why do they change so much? They wrecked ACOK and they're going to do the same to ASOS.

[ogremage]

So do a poll, do some research. Talisa is a ridiculous character, a ridiculous change, and being delusional doesn't even enter into this. D&D had a perfectly good storyline given to them by GRRM in the books. Why change it? Why do they change so much? They wrecked ACOK and they're going to do the same to ASOS.

The burden of proof is on you, you claimed to have 'evidence', so you do the polling (and not on this forum, which is full of book-readers who are not representative of the general show-watching population).

[deleted01]

The burden of proof is on you, you claimed to have 'evidence', so you do the polling (and not on this forum, which is full of book-readers who are not representative of the general show-watching population).

Where did I claim to have evidence? But seeing as you asked, a quick Google search should suffice. I also love how you refuse to take the word of this forum, as if the opinions of the people on this forum don't matter.

Continuing along the theme of “Robb has become too genuinely heroic,” his relationship with Talisa (or Jeyne, for book readers) is another significant departure from the books that changes characters for the worse.

Source.

* I don't feel that Talisa is playing a long con, although I still don't understand why they felt the need to change her identity from the books. Who knows maybe Talisa is a spy, betrays Robb to Tywin, and Jeyne.

One thing I was surprised about was Talisa not turning out to be who she was in the books. I really thought when they name dropped the Crag that was going to reveal her. It's still possible, but with her long story about Volantis and the slave tattoos, etc, I doubt she's making up stories. It makes you wonder why they decided to change her identity. I can't think of any real benefit one way or the other.

Comments by Richard3 from here.

Her [Talisa's] character was invented for television and was not in the books - the idea of a highborn woman from Volantis becoming a nurse in Westeros doesn't make a lot of sense in the world of Martin's novels. Interestingly, the actress who plays Talisa is a descendant of both Charlie Chaplin and Eugene O'Neill

Comment by Continental46 from here.

In this poll, Jeyne Westerling got 60%, Talisa 40%.

I don't know what else I'm supposed to say to prove this. Book readers' opinions do matter, in fact they matter a great deal, considering this whole story was written by GRRM and D&D wouldn't have any of this without him.

Now, show me some evidence that Talisa is a good change. Why do you think she is such a good character? She, actually, shifts Robb's whole storyline, changing the dynamics of his character and the reasons for his actions. In the books, he was being comforted after learning of his brothers' deaths; in the show, he's just a horny bloke. I'd be interested in your take on this.

[Winter's Lady]

IMO introducing Talisa was the dumbest decision of the showrunners. They're just making changes for the sake of making changes, with zero value added to the storyline.

So do a poll, do some research. Talisa is a ridiculous character, a ridiculous change, and being delusional doesn't even enter into this. D&D had a perfectly good storyline given to them by GRRM in the books. Why change it? Why do they change so much? They wrecked ACOK and they're going to do the same to ASOS.

:agree:

Obviously people who haven't read the book can't see the stupid changes or miss the real Jeyne, but from what I've heard and read Talisa comes off as a pretty ridiculous character anyway...girl from Volantis of all places stumbles on the battlefield and happens to woo the King in the North? Please...

Back to the original question of the thread...what will happen to her after the RW...well, I have zero idea, seeing that her story differs so much from the source material anyway. Considering I've read they're giving the actress archery lessons makes me wonder if she won't be there and shoots Robb herself, revealing that she worked for Roose/Tywin/the Freys after all :dunno:

Nothing surprises me anymore with this show :bang:

[Little Miss Sunshine]

So do a poll, do some research. Talisa is a ridiculous character, a ridiculous change, and being delusional doesn't even enter into this. D&D had a perfectly good storyline given to them by GRRM in the books. Why change it? Why do they change so much? They wrecked ACOK and they're going to do the same to ASOS.

THIS :bowdown:

IMHO Talisa was the worst of all the unecessary changes made in S2. I'm not a purist per say, I'm OK with changes being made when they actually make the story better. I do, however, have a huge problem with changing stuff for change's sake, and Talisa falls into this cathegory.

As Dracarya said before me, they had a perfectly good storyline in the canon source. A story that actually makes sense considering all the other characters and plots that it affects. Robb goes to the Crag, gets injured, she tends him, he learns about his brothers' death, she "comforts" him in this moment of grief, and then he chooses her honour instead of his own by marrying him, thus breaking the agreement he had with the Freys. We all know what happens next.

And on TV show, what do you have? You have Robb acting like a horny frat boy. He didn't even know of Bran and Rickon's death by the time he slept with her. There isn't really a "grief" factor that ultimately leads him to make a choice between her honour or his own. He just sleeps with her cause he feels like it, which ultimately is less understandable on they eyes of the other characters (namely, but not only, Cat). Needless to say, this huge change cheapens the plot and both of Robb and Cat's characters.

So no, I really don't like her. And just because tv-viewers don't read the books, doesn't mean they say Amen to everything HBO shoves down their throats. Take a look at the multiple GoT-related websites/Tumblrs and you'll see.

[Buckwheat]

Back to the original question of the thread...what will happen to her after the RW...well, I have zero idea, seeing that her story differs so much from the source material anyway. Considering I've read they're giving the actress archery lessons makes me wonder if she won't be there and shoots Robb herself, revealing that she worked for Roose/Tywin/the Freys after all :dunno:

You know what, I would actually like that. That would at least make some sense in her being there in the first place and Roose Bolton retreating from the tent every time she entered (to give her space to do her job) and her trying so hard to spend time with Robb (although he did not really try to make her job harder anyway). And I would hate to see her as a grieving widow because their storyline was completely unbelievable in the show. This change would admittedly make Robb looke even more naive, though, I do not know how I would feel about that. It would appear like Eddard and Catelyn have not managed to have one remotely intelligent child.

But I guess Robb will just leave her in Riverrun and she will stay there for some time and disappear from the story for good. I hope. I do not think her joining the Brotherhood or something similar would work, but as has been said, you never know what you can expect from this show.

[Winter's Lady]

It would appear like Eddard and Catelyn have not managed to have one remotely intelligent child.

:rofl:

Well not Robb at least...I'd still cut Bran and Arya some slack :P On the show Robb comes across as a horny teenager who wants to play king, not the grief ridden young man who carries the weight of the whole north on his shoulders. THANKS TALISA :bang:

[Buckwheat]

:rofl:

Well not Robb at least...I'd still cut Bran and Arya some slack :P On the show Robb comes across as a horny teenager who wants to play king, not the grief ridden young man who carries the weight of the whole north on his shoulders. THANKS TALISA :bang:

Yes, Robb acted like an idiot in the whole season, trusting this foreigner all the plans he had, allowing her to come to him at any time unguarded, and letting her walk around with his secrets, all the time refusing his wise mother who was clearly giving him good counsel: don't do that.

I mentioned the other children because Jon's behaviour with Ygritte, Old Bear and Qhorin was consistently facepalm-worthy, Sansa's role is reduced to a suffering victim, and even Arya fails to give Jaqen Tywin's name. I would cut Brandon and Rickon some slack. :)

Sorry for thread derail.