Victarion's Cliffhanger

[Men in their cups say...]

First ever post, be kind:

I just finished rereading Dance and of ALL the cliffhanger endings (basically every single character) I found Victarion's to be the most interesting on my second read. Mainly that the Dragon Horn must be claimed by blood. This made me recall the imagry in Moqorro's description of Vicatrion as a puppet dancing on Euron's kraken tentacle strings. It sounds to me like the Horn will bind dragon(s) to the Master of the Horn, currently Euron, and that the only way to become master of the Horn is through some blood magic ritual probably involving killing the previous Master. This puts Victarion in quite a bind given his position on kinslaying and the fact that Euron is on another continent. (He's definitely managing his kingdom and captains on either the iron or shield islands if not leading a campaign further into the continent, sorry to subscribers of the Dusky woman theory). I Liked this cliffhanger the most I think because it seemed to point Vic's story in a particular direction rather than ending in a totally openended scenario like Dany's or Jon's....thoughts?

[Ser Endrew Tarth]

Welcome to the forum :cheers:

I just like Vic and his smoking demon arm... IDK what Euron is up to exactly but "The Crow's Eye's gifts are poison" seems to be foreshadowing of some kind. If I had to guess about the whereabouts of the Iron men and Euron I'd say raiding up the mander "as in the days of old", or surprise attack at Oldtown, heck maybe a raid on the celtigar isle for the kraken horn who knows :dunno: . I have a feeling all three of my guesses are wrong though and that GRRM will surprise me and blow my mind! :eek:

[FittleLinger]

Welcome to the forum :cheers:

I just like Vic and his smoking demon arm... IDK what Euron is up to exactly but "The Crow's Eye's gifts are poison" seems to be foreshadowing of some kind. If I had to guess about the whereabouts of the Iron men and Euron I'd say raiding up the mander "as in the days of old", or surprise attack at Oldtown, heck maybe a raid on the celtigar isle for the kraken horn who knows :dunno: . I have a feeling all three of my guesses are wrong though and that GRRM will surprise me and blow my mind! :eek:

I also like him, but I think he is dead meat. And since GRRM called him "dumbass", I am certain he is on a death course.

As for Euron, I think he is with the Vic's fleet in disguise / hiding.

[Lord Liam DarkStark]

I think its extremely unlikely that he is hiding in the iron fleet. He couldn't expect to rule if he up and leaves. That was his plan to go to dany himself and "court" her. The ironmen disagreed and raised a little hell. Euron saw that if he would leave his grasp on the seastone chair would slip. So he devised the plan involving victarion. Its possible he's glamouring as someone and face changed and some one is acting as him. Which seems possible if he has a faceless man with him. As the ghost of high hearts vision showed. But it seems unlikely that he would ditch out and risk his rule. Of course the dragons are more important to him cause they could win any throne. but that seems a little too complicated. I think that euron has a plan to bring vic down and it doesn't involve him coverting on the iron fleet.

As to the cliff hanger morqorro is not trustworthy plus he was sent out to aid dany and he is slowly enthralling vic to the red god. I don't trust any blood magic for the horn. quaithe called him dark flame. Is that because of his skin or soul or both idk. But the sample vic chapter does show us he will be blow the horn with three seperate people. That could make it three times stronger or three times weaker...or not even effect it. I'm sure that the author will find a way to shock us as always. Vic seems like a dumbass, but could his dumbassery out smart euron because he lacks wits or the cleverness of euron. Sometimes (rarely) the stupid prevail. But I hope he fails in some epic fashion he is so badass but a dumb bad ass is super dangerous.

[FittleLinger]

I think its extremely unlikely that he is hiding in the iron fleet. He couldn't expect to rule if he up and leaves. That was his plan to go to dany himself and "court" her. The ironmen disagreed and raised a little hell. Euron saw that if he would leave his grasp on the seastone chair would slip. So he devised the plan involving victarion. Its possible he's glamouring as someone and face changed and some one is acting as him. Which seems possible if he has a faceless man with him. As the ghost of high hearts vision showed. But it seems unlikely that he would ditch out and risk his rule. Of course the dragons are more important to him cause they could win any throne. but that seems a little too complicated. I think that euron has a plan to bring vic down and it doesn't involve him coverting on the iron fleet.

I see what you're saying, and it's all fair points, but I just think that if it's true that the horn may bind dragons or if Euron truly believes it, he would have anticipated Vic's alleged betrayal due to his brother's nature and attitude towards him, and knows if Vic really comes with dragons bound to him, he will take everything from Euron, or even kill him. That's why I think he's travelling in secret - to take what's his (with fire and blood haha) when VIc decides to act on his own, as we see he is planning to.

[Men in their cups say...]

The Horn clearly reads"Blood for Fire, Fire for Blood" so I don't get why Vic has three people blow it and tells them they will live if they only blow it once. My only thought is that hes lying to them and expects all three of them die...

[flinky]

The Horn clearly reads"Blood for Fire, Fire for Blood" so I don't get why Vic has three people blow it and tells them they will live if they only blow it once. My only thought is that hes lying to them and expects all three of them die...

one guy blew it 3x and burned on the inside, from which blow we do not know. but he wants 3 men to give the biggest breath into it they can to make it the longest - tehy still might die from the one blow but Victorian does not care, he will have dragons - i his mind

[Men in their cups say...]

The Horn must be claimed by blood. Victarion ( who I think is underrated, he's less smart than crow's eye, doesn't make him stupid, Robert Griffin III isn't quite as fast as Hussein Bolt...) has to respond to this very straightforward instruction somehow, I wish I had been there to hear the new chapter.....alas.......

[Lord Liam DarkStark]

I see what you're saying, and it's all fair points, but I just think that if it's true that the horn may bind dragons or if Euron truly believes it, he would have anticipated Vic's alleged betrayal due to his brother's nature and attitude towards him, and knows if Vic really comes with dragons bound to him, he will take everything from Euron, or even kill him. That's why I think he's travelling in secret - to take what's his (with fire and blood haha) when VIc decides to act on his own, as we see he is planning to.

Yes I completely agree with that. But I don't think its necessary for him to be there and still trick victarion. Euron's gifts are always poisoned. Who knows what crazy spell or curse he could of put on the horn, morqorro could even be aware of this other spell or curse and he may just want to trick vic as much as euron. Euron is very clever I do think he knew vic would try and betray him and thts why he sent him on this quest. I don't think he would risk the dragons unless he knew vic would fail. I suppose we will see when the horn is blown. I think there is something about three seperate horn blowers though. I suppose since we have no euron POV that he could be incognito on the fleet or stow away. People even say he is the dusky woman. But I find that way too out there. I do think the dusky woman is part of euron's plan. Maybe a sorceress. But I guess that will be revealed in good time too.

[FittleLinger]

Yes I completely agree with that. But I don't think its necessary for him to be there and still trick victarion. Euron's gifts are always poisoned. Who knows what crazy spell or curse he could of put on the horn, morqorro could even be aware of this other spell or curse and he may just want to trick vic as much as euron. Euron is very clever I do think he knew vic would try and betray him and thts why he sent him on this quest. I don't think he would risk the dragons unless he knew vic would fail. I suppose we will see when the horn is blown. I think there is something about three seperate horn blowers though. I suppose since we have no euron POV that he could be incognito on the fleet or stow away. People even say he is the dusky woman. But I find that way too out there. I do think the dusky woman is part of euron's plan. Maybe a sorceress. But I guess that will be revealed in good time too.

Yes, but what would be the point in sending Vic to fail if not to save the day and claim the dragons out of the blue? I mean, OK, Vic fails, the iron fleet returns to Euron and they say, "Vic failed, he's dead, no dragons, no Queen, sorry". What will Euron get out of this, why would he do that? I agree we know little and the one-eyed devil might have any type of plan in the world, but what I think is that when Vic fails, Euron will emerge and somehow succeed to tame the dragons, and people will be awestruck by him, Dany inluding. Or I believe he believes so.

About the dusky woman, yes, there is something about her. I've heard the "theory" Euron = Dusky Woman, but that's just too twisted even for Euron. Posing as a woman (somehow) and having sex with your brother? I mean, come on!

[andrew_]

Victorian if anything is oblivious to the world around him, if he doesn't take control of the dragons what then? Do you think his fleet of mostly sailors can defeat 10,000 Unsullied? Or the combined Yunkish forces? Or even a Dothraki horde? Victorian is doomed imo, the only way he can come out of this situation in the clear is if he takes control of the dragons.

[FittleLinger]

Victorian if anything is oblivious to the world around him, if he doesn't take control of the dragons what then? Do you think his fleet of mostly sailors can defeat 10,000 Unsullied? Or the combined Yunkish forces? Or even a Dothraki horde? Victorian is doomed imo, the only way he can come out of this situation in the clear is if he takes control of the dragons.

Why would he fight Unsullied or a Dothraki horde? He is there presumably to side with Dany against the Yunkish and Volantene. I believe the ironborn can win, why not?

[andrew_]

Why would he fight Unsullied or a Dothraki horde? He is there presumably to side with Dany against the Yunkish and Volantene. I believe the ironborn can win, why not?

Mistake me if im wrong, but doesnt he intend to take Danny for himself and steal her from Euron? I doubt Danny will go quietly with him, and the Dothraki horde comment was just specualtion if in the scenario she ally's with Khal Jhaqo, you have to remmember Vic lost hald his ships on the way over as well.

[TheWanderer]

Do you think his fleet of mostly sailors can defeat 10,000 Unsullied? Or the combined Yunkish forces? Or even a Dothraki horde?

I think you underestimate the Ironborne here. To say that the Iron Fleet consists of mostly sailors is to basically ignore everything we know about Ironborne culture. They are vikings, they know how to fight and do so quite effectively. I also think your overestimating the Yunkish, I think a stiff breeze could take most of them out at this point (on account of the flux and the traitors). And while Victarion probably couldn't defeat a Dothraki horde he couldn't lose to one either as the Dothraki relationship with the sea is, shall we say... strained. At the moment Victarion controls one of (if not the) most powerful naval forces in the world, and certainly in the immediate area. His force is also healthy and fresh, unlikely the diseased and besieged he will be attacking, and has the benefit of attacking from a new angle. While Victarion's success does hinge on being able to bind the dragons he certainly does have other options available.

[FittleLinger]

Mistake me if im wrong, but doesnt he intend to take Danny for himself and steal her from Euron? I doubt Danny will go quietly with him, and the Dothraki horde comment was just specualtion if in the scenario she ally's with Khal Jhaqo, you have to remmember Vic lost hald his ships on the way over as well.

But he was supposed to win her over by helping her. And also providing her with transport overseas. The plan, as I recall and understand it is:

1) Help her with the battle, crush Volantene fleet, ensure her victory.

2) Provide her with the transport she so desperately needs since the very beginning

3) Bind / Otherwise connect with the dragons, and she will be all like "No way"!

[Brave Danny Flint]

I think its extremely unlikely that he is hiding in the iron fleet. He couldn't expect to rule if he up and leaves. That was his plan to go to dany himself and "court" her. The ironmen disagreed and raised a little hell. Euron saw that if he would leave his grasp on the seastone chair would slip. So he devised the plan involving victarion. Its possible he's glamouring as someone and face changed and some one is acting as him. Which seems possible if he has a faceless man with him. As the ghost of high hearts vision showed. But it seems unlikely that he would ditch out and risk his rule. Of course the dragons are more important to him cause they could win any throne. but that seems a little too complicated. I think that euron has a plan to bring vic down and it doesn't involve him coverting on the iron fleet.

As to the cliff hanger morqorro is not trustworthy plus he was sent out to aid dany and he is slowly enthralling vic to the red god. I don't trust any blood magic for the horn. quaithe called him dark flame. Is that because of his skin or soul or both idk. But the sample vic chapter does show us he will be blow the horn with three seperate people. That could make it three times stronger or three times weaker...or not even effect it. I'm sure that the author will find a way to shock us as always. Vic seems like a dumbass, but could his dumbassery out smart euron because he lacks wits or the cleverness of euron. Sometimes (rarely) the stupid prevail. But I hope he fails in some epic fashion he is so badass but a dumb bad ass is super dangerous.

I've read the transcript of the Victarion chapter I don't think Euron is hiding among the Iron Fleet, he can't leave the Ironborn without a leader otherwise they will do what they have always done in Westeros: raid, rape reave and leave. Euron needs to stay to keep his hold over his people together under one common purpose. Plus I think Euron is looking for something or someone in Oldtown probably at the Citadel so he needs his Ironborn to raid up the Mander. I guess we will find out in the Samwell chapters, he will be the only POV near Euron come WoW.

As for Victrarion I do like the idea of "dumb luck" being the only thing that brings the dragons back to Westeros with Dany. SOMEONE has to get her there by the next book surely and it ain't going to be Barristan or Jorah or the Golden Company or the Dothraki who can't even cross water. None of them have the ships or the time to get gold together to buy ships or build new ones. Maybe Victarion will die and Dany takes the Ironborn as hers and sails home with them, maybe Jorah will kill Victarion, the Mormonts have no love for the Ironborn, they have raided Bear Islands for centuries. Maybe Victarion somehow lives and brings her back. If Victarion dies it will be a waste of another POV in the same veins as Quentyn and is that necessary? Another suitor for Dany who fails at the first hurdle to bring her home. Khal Drogo was another one, he wasn't a POV but still he didn't make it alive out of the first book!

All I am saying is that Dany needs to get to Westeros soonish surely? Victarion has brought ships, forget the horn for a minute and think of the ships and a ready made fleet to sail Dany and whatever army she has left back home. I am aware I am probably one of the few on this site that think Dany will ever make it back to Westeros, but I don't think I could take another 3000+ of the next two books with the Dragon Queen on the wrong side of the world. :bang: Maybe she just flies back on Drogon ;)

Edited again this is the transcript for Victarion WoW chapter

[Men in their cups say...]

Yeah my theory about the Dusky woman is that her tongue was sacrificed to the flames in some sort of blood magic ritual (just like Varys' man parts). That's why she freaks out when she first sees Moqorro. To me that little bit shows her acting as her own self and debunks the Euron as the Dusky Woman theory. Although I guess Euron could be using her somehow just to occasionally peek through her eyes and spy on Vic but I'm not convinced, I don't see any evidence that hints at this and GRRM usually is pretty good at dropping us nice little hints.

Brave Danny, thanks for the transcript!!

[Old-Growth]

I've read the transcript of the Victarion chapter I don't think Euron is hiding among the Iron Fleet, he can't leave the Ironborn without a leader otherwise they will do what they have always done in Westeros: raid, rape reave and leave. Euron needs to stay to keep his hold over his people together under one common purpose. Plus I think Euron is looking for something or someone in Oldtown probably at the Citadel so he needs his Ironborn to raid up the Mander.

Maybe Victarion will die and Dany takes the Ironborn as hers and sails home with them, maybe Jorah will kill Victarion, the Mormonts have no love for the Ironborn, they have raided Bear Island for centuries. Maybe Victarion somehow lives and brings her back. If Victarion dies it will be a waste of another POV in the same vein as Quentyn and is that necessary? Another suitor for Dany who fails at the first hurdle to bring her home. Khal Drogo was another one, he wasn't a POV but still he didn't make it alive out of the first book!

All I am saying is that Dany needs to get to Westeros soonish surely? Victarion has brought ships, forget the horn for a minute and think of the ships and a ready made fleet to sail Dany and whatever army she has left back home. I am aware I am probably one of the few on this site that think Dany will ever make it back to Westeros, but I don't think I could take another 3000+ pages of the next two books with the Dragon Queen on the wrong side of the world. :bang: Maybe she just flies back on Drogon ;)

I suspect that Euron is directing the attack on Oldtown as well, which is not good news for Paxter Redwyne, who could be sailing right into one of Euron's traps. (Mace is foolishly over confident in what he says in the epilogue meeting in Dance about sweeping the Ironborn from the seas---he has no idea how good a tactician Euron is.)

The problem for Victarion is that the Red Priest who is helping him currently will do so only to the extent that it contributes to his real goal, viz. the fulfillment of the prophecy. The moment Victarion starts to get in the way, Moqorro will do what he can to put a stop to it, which may include Victarion's demise. The best Victarion can hope for is becoming Dany's Admiral, perhaps along side Aurane Waters.

I think there are more forum members than you think that expect Dany to reach Westeros with dragons, unsullied, et al. FWIW, I suspect that GRRM is holding her back because her arrival will start the plot moving to a climax, which he is not yet ready for. Marwyn's arrival will shift her attention to the renewed war for the dawn and away from the Iron Throne. As Stannis did, she may come to see that she must save Westeros if she is to rule it. (Once Moqorro hears about what is happening beyond the Wall, he will decide that the task of AAR is to fight that war, or so I suspect.)