So who told Brandon Stark that Lyanna was getting raped?

[House Cearl]

No he could have executed him too. Whether it appeals to our modern sensibilities or not, directly threatening the life of the crown prince is treason which is a crime punishable by death. Aerys would have been within his rights to kill Brandon (regardless of whether it would have been wise or not). Where Aerys went afoul the way he used his champion/did the trial by combat (though I think it might have been overlooked b/c technically the rules were still followed if that had been the only thing), and then calling for Robert and Ned's heads. That he had no right to do even as King.

Why call for a Baratheon head though? At this point the Baratheon's didn't even insult him yet. What a nutjob...

[Winter's Knight]

But the rules were not followed-he burnt Rickard and forced Brandon to be strangled as he tried to save his father, when it was the son who broke the law and not the father.

It'd be like Joff executing Sansa as well as Ned for Ned's treason.

[ab aeterno]

But the rules were not followed-he burnt Rickard and forced Brandon to be strangled as he tried to save his father, when it was the son who broke the law and not the father.

It'd be like Joff executing Sansa as well as Ned for Ned's treason.

Or Tywin wiping out House Reyne...

[Lady Sansa Stark]

No he could have executed him too. Whether it appeals to our modern sensibilities or not, directly threatening the life of the crown prince is treason which is a crime punishable by death. Aerys would have been within his rights to kill Brandon (regardless of whether it would have been wise or not). Where Aerys went afoul was the way he used his champion/did the trial by combat (though I think it might have been overlooked b/c technically the rules were still followed if that had been the only thing), and then calling for Robert and Ned's heads. That he had no right to do even as King.

Not really, definitely not without a trial and definitely not when you're the heir of a High Lord. The King ought to be bound by the law as well. Not that Aerys cared much, but still. Moreover, Aerys didn't execute him, he murdered him which is quite different. If he'd execute him, he should have died immediately, along with his party. But no, Aerys send a message to their fathers, who came willingly and after that murdered them all. Not executed their sons for calling for the crown prince to die (which is still not wrong in my eyes, only quite stupid), but murdered them because he liked it. Got aroused by it, you know, the sick bastard that he is.

[House Cearl]

Or Tywin wiping out House Reyne...

Ouch...

[TheCrannogDweller]

But if Brandon was already at Riverrun, that can't be right. And she wasn't kidnapped from Harrenhal, but some time after, since Ned and Robert were already back in the Eyrie.

Someone up-thread mentioned that there's a theory that Lyanna was staying as a guest of Lady Whent. It makes sense, because the abduction happened after the tourney, but before the wedding. Her official reason to stay at Harrenhal might've been that she didn't want to go all the way to Winterfell and back.

And where else could she have been taken from?

[Lady Sansa Stark]

But the rules were not followed-he burnt Rickard and forced Brandon to be strangled as he tried to save his father, when it was the son who broke the law and not the father.

It'd be like Joff executing Sansa as well as Ned for Ned's treason.

Joffrey'd like that, I'm sure of it. As a matter of fact, I'm quite surprised he didn't, the stupid sick bastard (quite literally, this) that he is. I think Sansa can thank her looks for this, and the fact that he needed a toy to play with. xO

[Lady Sansa Stark]

Someone up-thread mentioned that there's a theory that Lyanna was staying as a guest of Lady Whent. It makes sense, because the abduction happened after the tourney, but before the wedding. Her official reason to stay at Harrenhall might've been that she didn't want to go all the way to Winterfell and back.

And where else could she have been taken from?

From anywhere, really. Anywhere but farther up the North. She loved horse riding, that's for sure. She could be travelling somewhere, she could go to.. Well, name some things.

[TheCrannogDweller]

From anywhere, really. Anywhere but farther up the North. She loved horse riding, that's for sure. She could be travelling somewhere, she could go to.. Well, name some things.

She couldn't just go anywhere by herself. I imagine that after the tourney, she would've had to go back home to Winterfell, but instead chose to stay at Harrenhal, because Brandon's wedding was going to happen soon after that (well, relatively soon). So, the Whents courteously offered to host her (or maybe even foster her) and she stayed with them. She was probably riding around the castle and its grounds every day.

The thing is, someone had to have seen Rhaegar taking her (or riding away with her). Otherwise, she would've just been pronounced missing, or kidnapped, but his name would not have been involved.

[ivorydoom]

I sorta like the idea that Littlefinger got someone to tell Brandon Stark that Lyanna had been abducted. That would be quite a twist. I dont think everyone should just rule that out because he was only 15 or 16 years old at the time.

Sheesh, Robb Stark is commanding armies and coming up with battle strategies when he's 14, not to mention what Jon Snow is up to in the north. Arya is only like 10 and he's more cunning than half the adults I know LOL. GRRM clearly writes his characters to be a certain way from early age. I mean...come on...Bran is what...8? And he's an interesting and intellegent character to follow.

Plus, what better way to get back and Brandon after their duel? He obviously couldnt physically best him and Petyr doesnt strike me as the sort of character that would just sluff that off.

Eh, who knows. I just wouldnt throw the theory out, I dont see any REALLY good reason it couldnt have been him. He could have gotten anyone in on it. Including Lysa Tully herself if they were at Riverrun. (Which it seems they were)

And as for Aerys wanting Robert's head, I've actually been considering for awhile now, while reading this, that Robert Baratheon and many northerners may have been thinking of Usurping even before Lyanna's abduction, especially since they were supposed to be meeting with Rheagar...who might have wanted to smooth things over for himself or get them to back him over his father. Eh...thats an Idea I havent added all the pieces too, but....anyway....I wouldnt just rule Petyr out on that one.

[ivorydoom]

She couldn't just go anywhere by herself. I imagine that after the tourney, she would've had to go back home to Winterfell, but instead chose to stay at Harrenhall, because Brandon's wedding was going to happen soon after that (well, relatively soon). So, the Whents courteously offered to host her (or maybe even foster her) and she stayed at Harrenhall. She was probably riding around the castle and its grounds every day.

The thing is, someone had to have seen Rhaegar taking her (or riding away with her). Otherwise, she would've just been pronounced missing, or kidnapped, but his name would not have been involved.

interestingly a Whent was present at the TOJ when Lyanna died....hmmm

[Lady Sansa Stark]

She couldn't just go anywhere by herself. I imagine that after the tourney, she would've had to go back home to Winterfell, but instead chose to stay at Harrenhal, because Brandon's wedding was going to happen soon after that (well, relatively soon). So, the Whents courteously offered to host her (or maybe even foster her) and she stayed with them. She was probably riding around the castle and its grounds every day.

The thing is, someone had to have seen Rhaegar taking her (or riding away with her). Otherwise, she would've just been pronounced missing, or kidnapped, but his name would not have been involved.

That's why there has to be some people who were with Lyanna when she got abducted, who then told Brandon Stark. Indicating that Rhaegar spared their lives but managed to take Lyanna with him nonetheless.

[Lady Sansa Stark]

interestingly a Whent was present at the TOJ when Lyanna died....hmmm

Oswell Whent, right? A Knight of the Kingsguard?

[Sasha Steelsong]

Why call for a Baratheon head though? At this point the Baratheon's didn't even insult him yet. What a nutjob...

Well that was sort of my point, it was calling for Ned and Robert's heads that really were the final straw. And I'm with you, Aerys was just bonkers by this point as evidenced by the way he handled everything.

[ivorydoom]

Oswell Whent, right? A Knight of the Kingsguard?

Indeed.

It was Oswell Whent, Gerold Hightower, and Arthur Dayne of the Kingsgaurd.

Outside of all this abduction talk...has anyone considered why in gods name Lyanna was having a baby all alone in a room if that is actually what was going on?

Because I certainly have....I saw my cousin give birth....that shit is not something you should be doing all by yourself...and it just never seemed to fit into the puzzle if she was actually having some sort of lovechild...at least for me.

[Lady Sansa Stark]

Well that was sort of my point, it was calling for Ned and Robert's heads that really were the final straw. And I'm with you, Aerys was just bonkers by this point as evidenced by the way he handled everything.

Well, Robert Baratheon was already betrothed to Lyanna, that was commonly known. And Aerys probably just wanted them for fun. But yep, Jon Arryn only called his banners after he refused to hand over Ned and Robert's heads.

[TheCrannogDweller]

That's why there has to be some people who were with Lyanna when she got abducted, who then told Brandon Stark. Indicating that Rhaegar spared their lives but managed to take Lyanna with him nonetheless.

Well, if you believe the RLJ theory, then he wasn't really abducting her, but rather running away with her. If that is true, then she went willingly and he didn't have to fight someone for her and then spare his life.

Lord Whent (i know I said Lady in my previous posts, but I was wrong - there was a lord at that time) organized the Tourney in honour of his daughter. So maybe she and Lyanna were friends? Maybe after the tourney, the crown prince started visiting Harrenhal regularly? And at one such visit, they both disappeared, so naturally, the Whents put two and two together and alerted their liege lord, who in turn told Brandon.

[Lady Sansa Stark]

Indeed.

It was Oswell Whent, Gerold Hightower, and Arthur Dayne of the Kingsgaurd.

Outside of all this abduction talk...has anyone considered why in gods name Lyanna was having a baby all alone in a room if that is actually what was going on?

Because I certainly have....I saw my cousin give birth....that shit is not something you should be doing all by yourself...and it just never seemed to fit into the puzzle if she was actually having some sort of lovechild...at least for me.

It's likely there were some servants there. Rhaegar full well knows a woman can't give birth on her own. Well, 99.9% of the women can't. I mean, there have to be servants to attend to them/her, can you see the three Kingsguard attending on her? ;) They needed cooking, cleaning etc.

[Sasha Steelsong]

Not really, definitely not without a trial and definitely not when you're the heir of a High Lord. The King ought to be bound by the law as well. Not that Aerys cared much, but still. Moreover, Aerys didn't execute him, he murdered him which is quite different. If he'd execute him, he should have died immediately, along with his party. But no, Aerys send a message to their fathers, who came willingly and after that murdered them all. Not executed their sons for calling for the crown prince to die (which is still not wrong in my eyes, only quite stupid), but murdered them because he liked it. Got aroused by it, you know, the sick bastard that he is.

"Ought to" does not equal "is." The Lords of Westeros don't have any kind of document or set up (ala the Magna Carta) in order to bind the king to the law, thus the end result was that the king basically did as he felt like doing. He also went through the motions of a trial by combat, sure it was entirely a show trial but most trials in Westeros are, as they aren't actually trying to find the truth out in them (see Tyrion's trials). And up until he called for Ned and Robert's heads, Aerys was at least paying lip service to how things were done. Thus while disgusting and revolting, still within his rightful power as king.

[Lady Sansa Stark]

Well, if you believe the RLJ theory, then he wasn't really abducting her, but rather running away with her. If that is true, then she went willingly and he didn't have to fight someone for her and then spare his life.

Lord Whent (i know I said Lady in my previous posts, but I was wrong - there was a lord at that time) organized the Tourney in honour of his daughter. So maybe she and Lyanna were friends? Maybe after the tourney, the crown prince started visiting Harrenhal regularly? And at one such visit, they both disappeared, so naturally, the Whents put two and two together and alerted their liege lord, who in turn told Brandon.

too many maybe's? ;) And it is quite dangerous to put two and two together with the crown prince involved.. :v