Are all females set to become "villains"?

[Daenerys is my queen]

It seems pretty clear to me that Sansa isn't as honourable as Ned, and thank God for that; that's why she's alive and he's dead. Sansa's willingness to do dishonourable things is the main thing that's kept her alive. That doesn't mean she's not a true Stark, or whatever, but as honourable as Ned? Really?

I think I was the one who said the quote you're responding to. Yeah, Sansa isn't exactly as honorable as Ned. And that's to her benefit. She wouldn't have survived KL if she was exactly like Ned. However, she is honorable. :)

The point some of us are trying to make is this: They dont. Their arcs dont differ that much in comparison when you get right down to it. All the characters in the series can go one way or the other. hence why i find the OP to be rather silly.

:agree:

I don't equate doing a bad thing or things as being a villain. Arya, Brienne, Dany, and Sansa are not villains IMO. I must add that this is one of the reasons why I am cheering really hard for several of the female characters to come out on top in this game.

:agree:

Im out of likes so im gonna be all :agree: with this. But i dont agree that the Sand Snakes are villainous. At least not yet. They have insidious intent for the Lannisters but i think it depends on how that plays out. Shae isnt really a villain at all. Of course i detest her but im not sure id call her a villain. Melisandre, in my opinion is actually up in the air. Im not sure wtf shes trying do so i cant say if shes a villain or not. Selyse, again...shes fanatical and unpleasant but i have yet to see her do something horrible.

Agree with everything else though.

I don't think the Sand Snakes are villains either. Shae....I don't think she's exactly a good person but not necessarily a villain either. Melisandre....I have no clue. Selyse....well she was willing to let a bunch of people die but that's the only villainous thing she's done.

This is bizarre.

Jorah Mormont betrayed Dany. Tyrion Lannister murdered his own father and his former faux girlfriend and went on to rape prostitutes in Essos. Jaime tossed Bran out the window and threatened to return his baby with a trebuchet. Randyll Tarly tortured and threatened to kill Sam, his own son. Lots of the Nights watch knew what Craster did to his daughters but turned a blind eye. Robb sent 2000 men to their death. Theon betrayed the Starks to take Winterfell.

etc etc etc

Lots of male characters make grey choices as well, or morally repugnant choices. Or good chioces. There's no real dividing line per gender. Male or female, the characters make lots of moral choices over the novels.

:agree:

[SeanF]

Actually, she's choosing between Podric Payne and Jaime-- the former whom the BWB has presumably taken hostage.

OTOH, Jaime did save her life. I think it's unlikely she'd betray him after that, regardless of her sympathy for Podric Payne. I suspect she wants to save them both.

[Daemul]

There's nothing wrong with being morally grey, I myself am morally grey. I approved of Dany killing those 168 people, I would have taken if furthur and killed them all to deny the ones alive their vengance, ransacked Mereen, freed the slaves then burnt the city to the ground and moved on towards Volantis. If this makes Dany a "villian" I wonder what I am lol

I think GRRM said that Jon Snow would become more of a grey character, he will need too if he wants to defeat The Others, sacrifices will need to be made, Westeros doesn't need a Harry Potter like goodey two-shoes.

[Daenerys is my queen]

There's nothing wrong with being morally grey, I myself am morally grey. I approved of Dany killing those 168 people, I would have taken if furthur and killed them all to deny the ones alive their vengance, ransacked Mereen, freed the slaves then burnt the city to the ground and moved on towards Volantis. If this makes Dany a "villian" I wonder what I am lol

I think GRRM said that Jon Snow would become more of a grey character, he will need too if he wants to defeat The Others, sacrifices will need to be made, Westeros doesn't need a Harry Potter like goodey two-shoes.

:o That's a bit much don't you think? (Or maybe you don't.:lol:)

I don't think there's anything wrong with being morally grey either. After all no one in the real world is perfect, why should fictional characters be perfect? I don't blame Dany for killing them either. I think she does regret it and that IMO is good but I understand why she did it and I don't blame her for it. I can definitely see Jon becoming more of a grey character. In fact, I think he already is a bit of a grey character. And hey, Harry Potter is awesome! :angry: xD

[Pod The Impaler]

Mel similarly was built up as a villain in the first few books, trying to burn children, killing Cressen with her witchcraft etc. But once her POV has been shown we see that she truly believes what she is doing is right, is trying to help save the world and is more than willing to work with people like Davos who have conspired against her in the past because she views his loyalty to Stannis as a positive.

Well, just as Stannis was touted as an imminent villain in AGOT - to all the non-Lannisters, he was Robert's rightful heir buy law, but his fanatical / fearsome reputation alone was enough to create a sort of "anybody-but-Stannis" movement. Some even suggested acceding to Joffrey / Tywin rule even unlawfully, simply because it was seen as less bad or less extreme than having Stannis as king.

At first, Stannis seems to live up to the reputation, what with Cressen, and burning the Seven, and making shadow babies with Melisandre, etc. Of course after a while, we understood more and saw him in a less-than-villainous light. Of course, the good does not wash out the bad, and he's more like a "medium-to-light grey" character.

[Pod The Impaler]

I think it's interesting that in the books "power" and "autonomy" in female characters seem to be identified with corruption and villainy: Catelyn is at her most powerful and empowered not when she's alive, but when she's on her murder spree as Stoneheart. In life (after AGOT, at least), she's a helpless, hand-wringing Cassandra. In death, she's an implacable, all-powerful avenging angel who answers to no one. Catelyn, while less powerful, is ultimately compassionate and decent; Stoneheart, while more powerful, is ruthless, bloodthirsty and cruel. The female character most obsessed with power and autonomy is Cersei, who's the most villainous female character in the books. Coincidence? I very much doubt it.

There also seems to be a connection drawn between powerful female characters and insanity/mental illness: between the main three female characters who occupy positions of authority (as opposed to leaders in waiting like Arianne and Margaery or power brokers like Olenna), being Stoneheart (who heads up BWB), Lysa (who runs the Vale), and Cersei (Queen Regent), all three of them are insane. Coincidence? Again, I very much doubt it. (You can also throw in Dany; the Targaryen madness is obviously a gender-neutral affliction, but again, it seems noteworthy that a very powerful female character grapples with the fear of madness overtaking her, while there are many powerful male characters whose sanity is securely intact.)

I would disagree here. Catelyn was a powerful woman while alive, but her story tends to revolve around her inner conflicts and ultimately her grief. She isn't sword-powerful, but what power she has as a lady, she has in common with the wives of pretty much any great lord. Her life is lived in relation to her father, then husband, then sons - as a parallel to being Maid, Mother (well, wife first), and Crone (mother or grandmother). That's Westerosi society for women, basically.

Catelyn's mindful of her own power and what sort of power works or doesn't work when you're female. She understands the politics that go on, and does her best to advance her own interests. In many ways, she has made the most of it. This doesn't make her a helpless brood mare, any more than picking up a sword would act as a cure for all her potential ills. If she lost her mind, part of that was that her inability to do anything as her husband and sons and daughters were variously maimed, captured, and murdered. She was desperate to do something to stop it, without any real means to do so - particularly as it related to issues of warfare. As Brienne said, she had a "woman's courage", meaning battlefield bravery was not the only legitimate kind.

Lady Stoneheart is cold-blooded, and willing to act on Catelyn's pent-up grief and rage and pettiness, because that's all that's left of her, distilled down into some animated corpse - she's a shade with flesh. I don't think this makes Stoneheart more powerful, but less. The key to Lady Stoneheart is probably that underneath it all, is her condemnation of herself - having convinced Ned to go to King's Landing, having wrongly captured the Imp, having undermined her son's war effort by releasing the Kingslayer, having convinced her brother to marry a Frey as amends. Lady Stoneheart deserves her revenge, and the Freys and such deserve to die, but beyond that, what has she got ? She can't bring Robb or the others back to life, and she now seems more indifferent to the fate of Arya and Sansa. In some ways, she may be less brave, even as she is more openly forceful. She has nothing left to lose, so really what does she risk, travelling with some still-living bandits and hanging people like they're wet laundry ? She cannot die, but they still can.