Are all females set to become "villains"?

[JaegrM]

I'm not sexist.

Want to get that out of the way.

Sansa is being mentored by Littlefinger

Dany may be insane/becoming her father and has caused a LOT of death

Brienne is possibly betraying Jaime who has become a "Hero"

Arya is kind of a dark assassin

Cersei is...Cersei

Margery may have been involved in poisoning Joff, and of using Sansa to further the Tyrell's and her power

Asha and Arienne are the most ambiguous,

Asha being Ironborn is already a negative in a lot of ways.

Dorne... Are they "good" or "bad" ?

Am I forgetting any?

Edit: To better explain my point that I think most are missing I'm going to include an explanation I used further along in the thread

I've said already that males do make dark or grey choices.

BUT

They are not FORCED into ultimatums.

Sansa HAS to let Petyr kill Robin or save him. One or the other, no other way, it is unavoidable.

Same goes for Brienne; Jaime or UnCat.

Cersei and the sandsnakes Have 2 options a)Duty b)vengence

Arya has to kill people, no questions asked, or walk away and find herself again.

etc.

These are extreme choices, light or dark and can redefine how people in the fanbase fundamentally view the characters.

This CAN happen to male characters, BUT they are not being cornered by the plot into making those choices.

[Maid Sansa]

You might start by not referring to women as "females". It carries denigrating connotations, sounds like you're talking about a bunch of animals (as opposed to men, who are people) and is insulting. Yes, I know Jane Austen did it too, but Regency was not the most enlightened time in history about gender equality.

And on topic:

Sansa knows quite clearly that Littlefinger is not a good person, and does not agree with him.

Asha is no more negative than Jaime. She likes fighting.

We don't know enough about what, how and why Brienne is doing at the moment to judge her. We do, however, know that she's an honorable and principled person, even when it's not the easiest thing to do.

Arianne is doing the best she can for Dorne in cooperation with her father. If you believe that makes her a villain, well, I disagree.

Melisandre genuinely believes she's doing the right and moral thing.

We don't know enough about Margaery either.

I'll give you Cersei and Arya, but that's not nearly enough to prove your point. So... no.

You'd think you had read enough of the series to realise that "good" and "bad" are not nearly as clear-cut as some might wish it to be. Dorne good or bad - according to what values? There are good people who do bad things. There are bad people who do good things. And most people are sometimes good and sometimes bad, and sometimes they do good things and sometimes they do bad things, and sometimes they do things that are both, depends on whom you ask.

Now, guess what? Women are people too. Which means *gasp* the abovementioned holds true for them too. And GRRM is good enough at characterization that he doesn't need to resort to RPG-style black and white labels above people's names to let us know who is good and who is bad.

[Éadaoin]

I am having a hard time wrapping my mind around the concept of many of these characters being villains, especially given GRRM's tendency to write grey characters. Brienne and Sansa, villainous? Making mistakes and being a grey character is not the same as being a villain.

Of all of these, I would say Cersei is the most villainous.

[cuendillar]

You missed some, but they don't really change your point:

Catelyn - Lady Stoneheart, need I say more...

Melisandre/Selyse - I think R'hllor's going to become big trouble soon rather than late.

Tyene/Nymeria/Obara - no idea where the aggressive Sand Snakes are going to end up. What is Dorne up to?

Queen of Thorns - same points as you put on Margaery, but probably more unscrupulous.

I ignore young girls like Myrcella, Shireen, Ellaria's daughters etc. Alleras seems OK though, might be an important ally to Sam in time.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Jaime? Hero? No way in hell! :box:

But another question. Do you know a male that isn't set to become a villain? (Davos excluded, like Brienne).

The heroes are dead, only the greyer characters survived. If there were any heroes to start with.

[House Cearl]

What makes this hard is that I don't see the ASOIAF series having "heroes" or "villains". It's just a bunch of people with their own agenda fighting.

IMO Sansa is being neutral right now, but I'm sure whatever Littlefinger is "teaching" her is going to get him killed and the way that's going to happen is when Brynden Tully makes it to the Eyrie (where the hell can he run to anyway?) Littlefinger will kill Brynden while he tries to save Sansa and the moment will probably make Sansa not want to be a tool anymore and get Littlefinger killed through politics.

Dany.... I think her heart is still in the right place but she's gonna screw up.

Brienne is not going to get Jaime killed but give him the low down on her situation and then he'll help her out. I think Jaime dies somewhere else and not at the hands of Brienne or the BWB.

Arya I'm convinced is just a spanner just wating to happen. She's going to get a contract to kill Aegon VI Targaryen. Iron Bank of Braavos backing Stannis and all pays the Faceless Men to get it done.

Cersei is the only one I'd say fits being a villain.

[Groat]

When compared to the real "villains" of the story (Euron, the Mountain, Ramsay, pretty much all the Freys), there is not a single woman in the series that can be called a villain. The only one to come close is Cersei. And the only thing Cersei has actually done is killed a high septon, conspire to kill Margery, and bang her brother. Next to Ramsay, Cersei is a saint.

[mormont]

I'm not sexist.

Want to get that out of the way.

Glad to have that clear. ;)

I think you might be slightly optimistic if you really believe that people are going to judge whether you're sexist or not on your say-so rather than on the content of what you say, and it does betray a slight lack of confidence in the latter measure to say 'I'm not sexist' up front like that... but hey.

Sansa is being mentored by Littlefinger

Dany may be insane/becoming her father and has caused a LOT of death

Brienne is possibly betraying Jaime who has become a "Hero"

Arya is kind of a dark assassin

Cersei is...Cersei

Margery may have been involved in poisoning Joff, and of using Sansa to further the Tyrell's and her power

Asha and Arienne are the most ambiguous,

Asha being Ironborn is already a negative in a lot of ways.

Dorne... Are they "good" or "bad" ?

Am I forgetting any?

So all we need to do to prove the thesis is valid is accept a few very arguable assumptions as fact, shift the goalposts to suit, beg a startling range and variety of questions, and if all else fails suggest some degree of uncertainty?

You don't think that someone could compile just as valid an argument substituting male characters?

[JaegrM]

You'd think you had read enough of the series to realise that "good" and "bad" are not nearly as clear-cut as some might wish it to be. Dorne good or bad - according to what values? There are good people who do bad things. There are bad people who do good things. And most people are sometimes good and sometimes bad, and sometimes they do good things and sometimes they do bad things, and sometimes they do things that are both, depends on whom you ask.

Now, guess what? Women are people too. Which means *gasp* the abovementioned holds true for them too. And GRRM is good enough at characterization that he doesn't need to resort to RPG-style black and white labels above people's names to let us know who is good and who is bad.

I apologize for misspeaking, I definitely wasn't trying to imply I meant a black and white hero/villain

Also, "Female" just seemed the better description Sansa and Arya are young enough where "girls" would be more appropriate.

No offense meant.

But we have Theon being a staunch Stark loyalist becoming a turncloak, Same with The Boltons, When we met Littlefinger he was a guy trying to help Cat, and look where he is now.

We have Cat becoming Stoneheart.

This is what I meant by becoming a "Villain"

That's why I put it in quotes, I thought that would be enough to convey my meaning.

I'm not saying that they WILL join the darkside, I'm saying are they all being placed in positions where it could be likely...

Gah,

Example; Sansa could be put in a spot where she has the ability or chance to save Sweet Robin, but she may not, she may have been mentored enough by Littlefinger by then to see it could further her own wishes and allow it happen.

Arianne and/or The Sandsnakes are being moved into a position to poison Tommen. An innocent Child.

Does what I'm asking make more sense now?

[R'hllor's Bastard]

You forgot Selsye, she is a windbag offering nothing positive. She is the first person we see suggesting the murder of Renly.

[Éadaoin]

When we met Littlefinger he was a guy trying to help Cat, and look where he is now.

I love LF, but what? He has always been self-serving. And, I believe, fairly sociopathic.

[The Smirking Fox]

Terms like good and bad are completely subjective.

The poisoning of Joffrey was a good thing for the realm regardless whether or not Margery had any part in it.

Dany is a Dragon.

Brienne is a true knight.

Cersei is Cersei.

Sansa thus far is a pawn.

[DaeneryStormBorn]

None of them are set for a Villain. IMO they are what they have become because of what happened to them. It's called surviving.

As for Cersie she does gets evil at times, but she is a woman trying to make it the world of men. She is playing the Game of thrones.

I use to dislike Cersie but I started to soften towards her when I did a reread. Her situation is the most difficult. She feels she needs to do certain things to move in motion what she wants. Cersie is very human lol She reminds me of me sometimes.

[Éadaoin]

You forgot Selsye, she is a windbag offering nothing positive. She is the first person we see suggesting the murder of Renly.

...and Stannis decides to do it. But I'd hardly say that Stannis is a villain. He's grey.

[Daemul]

The fact that the OP has to open with a self defensive statement on how he's not sexist in a topic about women worries me...

[JaegrM]

I love LF, but what? He has always been self-serving. And, I believe, fairly sociopathic.

I know he is.

But when we met him, we didn't know that.

He was assisting Ned, giving him advice about not trusting anyone, etc.

We had no idea he was behind his beheading, Jon Arryn's death, etc.

This is just an example of a "good guy" becoming a "bad guy"

I think I'm explaining this poorly..

Moreso than the male characters it seems like all the females are being positioned to be put at a moral fork in the rode.

Sansa knows that Petyr plans to kill Robert Arryn. What will she do? If she were to let this happen, her character would be viewed DRASTICALLY different.

Brienne has been moved into a betrayal of either UnCat or Jaime, who will she side with? This will define the future of her character.

Arya will either keep her identity or lose herself to the FM. I believe she'll be put into a posistion where she gets a contract to kill someone she knew, an innocent baby, or something, and that moral choice will redefine who she is.

And on and on.

As opposed to many of the males,

What moral dilemmas does Jaime face? Davos? Jon?

They're not currently put into positions that will change how the entire audience will perceive them, as dark or light.

[JaegrM]

The fact that the OP has to open with a self defensive statement on how he's not sexist in a topic about women worries me...

I knew it would come up.

I was trying to dismiss it before it happened.

In hindsight it was perhaps a mistake that just brought it up faster than it otherwise would have.

[Winter's Knight]

When compared to the real "villains" of the story (Euron, the Mountain, Ramsay, pretty much all the Freys), there is not a single woman in the series that can be called a villain. The only one to come close is Cersei. And the only thing Cersei has actually done is killed a high septon, conspire to kill Margery, and bang her brother. Next to Ramsay, Cersei is a saint.

Qyburn, you forgot Qyburn. Still, morally she is no worse than Tyrion.

OT:

I was about to type out a passionate reply pointing out the various problems in your argument but Brienne,? a villain? Really? For turning in Jaime Lannister, Breaker of Bran and Sullier of Guest Right? The guy who abandoned the woman he loved and the mother of his children to her doom? And you name him hero?

Bah!

[R'hllor's Bastard]

...and Stannis decides to do it. But I'd hardly say that Stannis is a villain. He's grey.

Im going by the op assertion that saying "villian" doesnt mean actual villian.

Just meaning there are a lot of female characters that are becoming powerful enough to accept a share of blame and criticism when things dont go smoothly.

[Éadaoin]

Im going by the op assertion that saying "villian" doesnt mean actual villian.

Just meaning there are a lot of female characters that are becoming powerful enough to accept a share of blame and criticism when things dont go smoothly.

I don't know, I'd say a lot of them get a fair amount of blame already.