Are all females set to become "villains"?

[Dr. Pepper]

No offense, OP, but it sort of seems like your definition of villain is women who have become or have the potential to become powerful entities in their own right. Perhaps you should let us know what sort of definition you are using so that we aren't so confused by your thesis.

[JaegrM]

Im going by the op assertion that saying "villian" doesnt mean actual villian.

Just meaning there are a lot of female characters that are becoming powerful enough to accept a share of blame and criticism when things dont go smoothly.

That's a close enough summary of what I meant, yes.

I don't mean just being blamed unjustly though, being put into powerful and pivotal situations that can change our views of how they are.

Think Theon's face/heel turn.

Qyburn, you forgot Qyburn. Still, morally she is no worse than Tyrion.

OT:

I was about to type out a passionate reply pointing out the various problems in your argument but Brienne,? a villain? Really? For turning in Jaime Lannister, Breaker of Bran and Sullier of Guest Right? The guy who abandoned the woman he loved and the mother of his children to her doom? And you name him hero?

Bah!

Jaime has been going through his redemption arc trying to regain his lost honor, he may very well be the only one that's still trying to save Sansa for her own well being and not just to further their own goals (excluding Brienne obviously)

He heard he personally had to go to save Sansa's life and he didn't even hesitate.

But honestly, you don't see a dark moral change in Brienne if she lures Jaime away under false pretenses and hands him over to UnCat as a death sentence?

The man she obviously has a thing for?

[Daemul]

I knew it would come up.

I was trying to dismiss it before it happened.

In hindsight it was perhaps a mistake that just brought it up faster than it otherwise would have.

Yeah, I don't blame you. It seems like its necessary these days to put some sort of disclaimer in case people accuse you. It's such a sad state of affairs that it's going this way.

[R'hllor's Bastard]

I don't know, I'd say a lot of them get a fair amount of blame already.

I mean political leader blame, so far Dany and Cersei are the only ones who have been in that situation. There is tons of blame given to all characters for sure.

[mormont]

I think I'm explaining this poorly..

Moreso than the male characters it seems like all the females are being positioned to be put at a moral fork in the rode.

Yeah... I'm just not seeing that.

The problem is more than explaining your point about female characters poorly: it's that you haven't explained why we should look at this question through the lens of sex (or gender) in the first place. What's the purpose served by it? What point are you making by grouping the female characters together in this rather misshapen lump?

IMO this, more than anything, is why people are looking a little askance at your opening claim about not being sexist - why are you making sex an issue here at all?

[Winter's Knight]

That's a close enough summary of what I meant, yes.

I don't mean just being blamed unjustly though, being put into powerful and pivotal situations that can change our views of how they are.

Think Theon's face/heel turn.

Jaime has been going through his redemption arc trying to regain his lost honor, he may very well be the only one that's still trying to save Sansa for her own well being and not just to further their own goals (excluding Brienne obviously)

He heard he personally had to go to save Sansa's life and he didn't even hesitate.

But honestly, you don't see a dark moral change in Brienne if she lures Jaime away under false pretenses and hands him over to UnCat as a death sentence?

The man she obviously has a thing for?

No, I don't think turning Jaime into Cat, when she swore an oath to her that she would do so will make her a villain. Does it make her morally complex? Sure, but not a villain.

[JaegrM]

Yeah... I'm just not seeing that.

The problem is more than explaining your point about female characters poorly: it's that you haven't explained why we should look at this question through the lens of sex (or gender) in the first place. What's the purpose served by it? What point are you making by grouping the female characters together in this rather misshapen lump?

This, more than anything, is why people are looking a little askance at your opening claim about not being sexist - why are you making sex an issue here at all?

It was simply a trend I was noticing.

All the males seem to be in a posistion where they're just going to keep doing what they're doing.

Jon's not going to abandon fighting the whitewalkers.

Stannis isn't going to stop fighting for his claim.

Davos isn't going to stop fighting for Stannis.

Jaime isn't set to abandon fighting for his house or his oaths.

Sam is going to keep being Sam.

All the females seem poised to make drastic light/dark decisions.

Is GRRM sexist?

Cat and Dany are hot button characters already.

Cat's been in a posistion since day one for being able to be blamed for starting the entire war..

[JaegrM]

It was simply a trend I was noticing.

....

Cat's been in a posistion since day one for being able to be blamed for starting the entire war..

Not saying I blame her.

But it's a hot button issue that gets brought up.

[ab aeterno]

JaegrM, if I were you I'd just drop this now. It's going downhill.

[JaegrM]

JaegrM, if I were you I'd just drop this now. It's going downhill.

yeeeah.

[Daenerys is my queen]

All female characters are going to become villains? Ok no. Just..no. Sansa is a true Stark. She is as honorable as Ned. Arya, while she may be an assassin now, doesn't mean she's going to become evil. She is a Stark after all. Dany....omg don't get me started on Dany. If I have to hear someone say Dany's a villain or Dany's crazy one more time I'm going to punch someone (not really of course xD). Dany is a good person and no one thinks she's like her father- except members of the fandom of course. As for Brienne, you have GOT to be kidding. She's as honorable as a Stark. And it's not certain that she's going to betray Jaime. You never know, she could have something up her sleeve. Cersei, yeah she's evil, but she always was so there's no surprise there. Melisandre...I don't know what's up with her so I won't even go there. Asha, unlike the rest of the Ironborn, has some common sense so I have hope for her. As for Arriane and the Sand Snakes, they understandably want revenge for what the Lannisters have done to their family. I don't think they're evil.

[ARYa_Nym]

We were just comparing Arya to Lilith in the Arya thread the other day.

I really don't give a fuck if she becomes a villain.

She doesn't need to be a good little girl who behaves to me.

If she goes darker I hope she is the best villain there is in the story.

I don't think she needs "redemption". Based on Jamie's arc I think that's crap anyway.

[JaegrM]

All female characters are going to become villains? Ok no. Just..no. Sansa is a true Stark. She is as honorable as Ned. Arya, while she may be an assassin now, doesn't mean she's going to become evil. She is a Stark after all. Dany....omg don't get me started on Dany. If I have to hear someone say Dany's a villain or Dany's crazy one more time I'm going to punch someone (not really of course xD). Dany is a good person and no one thinks she's like her father- except members of the fandom of course. As for Brienne, you have GOT to be kidding. She's as honorable as a Stark. And it's not certain that she's going to betray Jaime. You never know, she could have something up her sleeve. Cersei, yeah she's evil, but she always was so there's no surprise there. Melisandre...I don't know what's up with her so I won't even go there. Asha, unlike the rest of the Ironborn, has some common sense so I have hope for her. As for Arriane and the Sand Snakes, they understandably want revenge for what the Lannisters have done to their family. I don't think they're evil.

Ok.

I know I should just stfu because this is going badly for me, but I want to repeat, I REALLY didn't mean a black and white Good and Evil.

Villain was a wrong word to use apparently, I put it in quotes to imply that, but apparently that wasn't enough.

Brienne COULD have something up her sleeve.

Arya MIGHT not lose herself to vengeance and murder.

What I'm saying is women, way more than men are being positioned by Martin to make more defined major light/dark decisions, that will affect how they're viewed by a large percentage of readers.

Is Martin doing this on purpose?

Coincidence?

[R'hllor's Bastard]

You shouldnt have used the word villian, most posters cant get past the literal meaning of the word.

[JaegrM]

We were just comparing Arya to Lilith in the Arya thread the other day.

I really don't give a fuck if she becomes a villain.

She doesn't need to be a good little girl who behaves to me.

If she goes darker I hope she is the best villain there is in the story.

I don't think she needs "redemption". Based on Jamie's arc I think that's crap anyway.

I'm also not trying to say that if Arya/Sansa/Dany becomes darker it'd be a bad thing.

I'd honestly love it if Sansa became a cold ice queen.

[JaegrM]

You shouldnt have used the word villian, most posters cant get past the literal meaning of the word.

Apparently.

Hindsight's a bitch.

[ab aeterno]

Apparently.

Hindsight's a bitch.

Isn't it just?

I'm looking at you, Ned...

[The Smirking Fox]

She doesn't need to be a good little girl who behaves to me.

Love is accepting someone for who they are, flaws and all. I'm not very fond of Jaime's redemption myself, but that's also because the next step is a Cersei redemption arc, which would just destroy the series in my eyes.

Cersie is very human lol She reminds me of me sometimes.

I have my eye on you. <_<

[Fire and Blood!]

But honestly, you don't see a dark moral change in Brienne if she lures Jaime away under false pretenses and hands him over to UnCat as a death sentence?

The man she obviously has a thing for?

I don't.The kingslayer's death sentence is already overdue, any man or woman that help bring justice to him is a hero in my eyes.

[Winter's Knight]

You shouldnt have used the word villian, most posters cant get past the literal meaning of the word.

Have they changed how words work?