Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Othersrcute

The Starks will Rise

Recommended Posts

I'm pretty sure LF's sigil is the Titan of Bravos. His grandfather (I believe) was Bravosi. Either way, I think we're going to see LF play a significant role, however most likely not in the North.

LF's father's sigil was the Titan of Braavos but LF took a mockingbird, IIRC. He wears a mockingbird pin as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You never know with GRRM has planned, because whenever someone tries something it always seems to go wrong in the series.

Look for Arya's first foray as a Faceless Man to bring her to the Vale... but not to kill Littlefinger. I'm guessing LF has HIRED the FMs to take out Harry the Heir once Sansa is joined to him.

I look for Cat to also show up in the Vale and fling herself out the moon door while embracing LF.

I am expecting the Others to get the Cthulhu treatment as per Lovecraft. A lot of reference to them but little if any actual involvement. They'll remain a threat averted while the wall remains standing.

Rickon will be the Prince in Winterfell as Jon will be its legitimized Lord -- with Lady Daenerys by his side. Jon's vows to the NW ended with his "death". Aegon will rightfully regain his throne (although that "mummer's dragon" prophecy still nips at me somewhat.) Egg, Dany and Jon -- your three heads. Or Tyrion, if Aegon indeed proves to be the mummer's dragon which some suspect. Love the potential twist of Tyrion being a Targ. Robb's son from Jeyne (off with the Blackfish) will be raised by Sansa (who will not marry) as the heir to the Vale.

Ashara Dayne = Lemore.

Dorne will finish off Myrcella. Varys will take out Tommen. Cersei will die by Jaime's hand (emphasis on the singular here).

The Freys will all be killed to their last... all while clan elder Walder sees his obsession with heirs go up into thin air. That will do him in -- to know he will be forgotten with no legacy.

Sandor will emerge to take down Gergor-stein Robert Strong.

Bran has joined the Old Gods now in case no one else has noticed.

Arya will re-unite with Jaqen H'ghar who will reveal himself to her as the man who was Syrio Forel.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If he dies it will be a tragedy for Westeros. No-one else cares enough about the realm. No-one else has the determination to see the war through.

Stannis cares about the realm? I see no evidence of that. Stannis cares about his "rights" - he is the "rightful" heir to Robert's throne/he has a "right" to the allegiance of the Lords/Houses/he has the "right" to rule.

He is a self-obsessed, self-justifying hypocrite, perverting the notion of "justice" to mean exactly what he wants it to mean to further his own ends - witness killing Renly and burning people alive.

He is an interesting character, but hardly an admirable one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I realize that the R + L= J plot is facinating and a very probable ending but are there any alternative plots were Jon is AA but dies to save the realm? Maybe a final battle between Mel and Jon or Jon and Aegon to regain the throne for Dany. I think GRRM has a knack for emphasizing sacrafice for duty and honor. I want to be right but I would rather be wrong and not figure out the end of the series until the final chapter of the final book. Just saying....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree, although i don't know if tyrion should be on that list. GRRM always said that tyrion was his favorite character, and there are doubts as to whether tywin actually was tyrions father. In that case tyrion wouldn't we a kinslayer. :dunno:

But still, i really dont want tyrion to die. He's one of my favorite characters.

I agree. Also, even if Tywin was Tyrion's father, he had it coming. He always treated him like shit.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Stannis cares about the realm? I see no evidence of that. Stannis cares about his "rights" - he is the "rightful" heir to Robert's throne/he has a "right" to the allegiance of the Lords/Houses/he has the "right" to rule.

At first that was true. Stanis admits this himself. Then he realizes that he must save the realm to win the throne, not win the throne to save the realm. Davos reminds him of that, and he was the only king who cared. Hence why he is the only king who answer the call of the NW, and the king who will restore the Starks to WF and see the Boltons and Freys punished.

He is a self-obsessed, self-justifying hypocrite, perverting the notion of "justice" to mean exactly what he wants it to mean to further his own ends - witness killing Renly and burning people alive.

He's certainly not self-obsessed, whatever else he might be. Renly was an admitted traitor and a criminal. His death could have been cleaner, but his death was well deserved.

Not going to defend the burning people alive, but that isn't connected to his being the only king who cares about the realm.

He is an interesting character, but hardly an admirable one.

He is human, but I would say that he is more admirable than all but a few- Davos, for instance, Brienne, Aemon, etc.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, presumably he holds the North because a decent number of the northern lords are already sworn to him, and Manderly has pledged to support him once Davos has gotten Rickon back. Seems like Stannis has a better chance than anyone else of uniting the northmen.

Better chance than a stark? explain?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No Stannis=no Stark in WF. Simple as that. Stannis has a sizable army with him, with northern reinforcements incoming (unless the Northmen are oathbreakers?) Stannis is the last hope for Starks in the North.

Kind of disagree here. I don't think we can rule out Rickon at the moment. yes he is young, very young infact. However look at the list of LCs of the NW that Sam recites to Jon. There were boys much younger than Jon who lead the NW, one for over 60 years. Also the strength of his force when he returns is 100% unknown to us. Will the North flock to him? I'd say so. How many warriors will he bring from Skagos? Where are the Mountain Clans?

Any ways all I am saying is that "No Stannis=no Stark in WF" is a pretty absurd statement right now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Stannis cares about the realm, and he took arms because he felt he is the legitimate successor because his claim is the strongest. While he is an ass about it, it also seems to me that he might step aside if he is encountered with a better claim and that he would go on serving the realm - perhaps as the LC of NW?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Better chance than a stark? explain?

Better chance that a dead guy who needs to be legitimized and has never led men during a war or a little child. Probably a better chance than Bejen too. Stannis is a proven commander and he also avoids the Jon vs Rickon dilemma.

Kind of disagree here. I don't think we can rule out Rickon at the moment. yes he is young, very young infact. However look at the list of LCs of the NW that Sam recites to Jon. There were boys much younger than Jon who lead the NW, one for over 60 years.

But Jon is a) possibly dead, b ) Committed to the NW, and c ) Cannot be legitimized without Stannis or Rickon/Bran first. He is also unproven during war. What he has done with the NW isn't war.

Also the strength of his force when he returns is 100% unknown to us. Will the North flock to him? I'd say so. How many warriors will he bring from Skagos?

Even assuming he does he is a little boy and he can't lead an army. Assuming he brings any from Skagos it won't be enough to win a war.

Where are the Mountain Clans?

With Stannis...

Any ways all I am saying is that "No Stannis=no Stark in WF" is a pretty absurd statement right now.

Is it? Without Davos (hence Stannis,) no Rickon. Without Stannis there is no-one really qualified to lead to the northern armies against the Boltons (and probably aren't enough men anyway. Without Stannis Jon is a bastard and can't be the "Stark in Winterfell," and can't get out of the NW either.

So no, it's not an absurd statement unless you're expecting Dany or Aegon to pop up to help get Rickon or Jon into WF.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well there's the whole Northern conspiracy theory, which has some evidence, and would allow Roose to be defeated without needing help from Stannis. Also there are at least two people who know about Robb's will that not only legitimized Jon but made him heir.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Better chance that a dead guy who needs to be legitimized and has never led men during a war or a little child. Probably a better chance than Bejen too. Stannis is a proven commander and he also avoids the Jon vs Rickon dilemma.

But Jon is a) possibly dead, b ) Committed to the NW, and c ) Cannot be legitimized without Stannis or Rickon/Bran first. He is also unproven during war. What he has done with the NW isn't war.

Even assuming he does he is a little boy and he can't lead an army. Assuming he brings any from Skagos it won't be enough to win a war.

With Stannis...

Is it? Without Davos (hence Stannis,) no Rickon. Without Stannis there is no-one really qualified to lead to the northern armies against the Boltons (and probably aren't enough men anyway. Without Stannis Jon is a bastard and can't be the "Stark in Winterfell," and can't get out of the NW either.

So no, it's not an absurd statement unless you're expecting Dany or Aegon to pop up to help get Rickon or Jon into WF.

Manderly cannot find another sailor in all of WH?? There is no way of bringing back Rickon if Davos does not??

The truth is that without a Stark Stannis cannot bring the North under his control - even the mountain clans are following him only to save Ned's girl - a Stark. If Ramsay was not marrying a Stark(publicly that is) I doubt Stannis could have persuaded anyone apart from the Glovers to help him. The truth also is that without a Stark(Jon) Stannis would right now be feeding crows and dogs outside the walls of the Dreadfort.

And btw Jon is a Stark, not a Snow - he was legitimized in Robb's will.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Manderly cannot find another sailor in all of WH?? There is no way of bringing back Rickon if Davos does not??

The truth is that without a Stark Stannis cannot bring the North under his control - even the mountain clans are following him only to save Ned's girl - a Stark. If Ramsay was not marrying a Stark(publicly that is) I doubt Stannis could have persuaded anyone apart from the Glovers to help him. The truth also is that without a Stark(Jon) Stannis would right now be feeding crows and dogs outside the walls of the Dreadfort.

And btw Jon is a Stark, not a Snow - he was legitimized in Robb's will.

Assuming the will gets out and Jon was legitimized. I'm still not sure whether this has been definitively confirmed.

I don't mean to say that Stannis can do it alone, he can't, but really neither can the Starks. If Manderly could have gotten any sailor to do it, why didn't he? Why not just find the first sailor in WH? The first smuggler? He needs someone very good at smuggling. He needs someone who can trust. He waited quite some time to be able to send Davos specifically.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Assuming the will gets out and Jon was legitimized. I'm still not sure whether this has been definitively confirmed.

I don't mean to say that Stannis can do it alone, he can't, but really neither can the Starks. If Manderly could have gotten any sailor to do it, why didn't he? Why not just find the first sailor in WH? The first smuggler? He needs someone very good at smuggling. He needs someone who can trust. He waited quite some time to be able to send Davos specifically.

As for the will - I am a big proponent of the Northern conspiracy theory. I think a lot of the Northern Lords already know about the will and are just playing the Boltons against Stannis and once a weakened winner emerges then Jon will be crowned and the winner kicked out.

As for the uniting the north part - I agree, Starks and Stannis need each other.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As for the will - I am a big proponent of the Northern conspiracy theory. I think a lot of the Northern Lords already know about the will and are just playing the Boltons against Stannis and once a weakened winner emerges then Jon will be crowned and the winner kicked out.

As for the uniting the north part - I agree, Starks and Stannis need each other.

I think I mostly agree with this. However, if it is Jon I think that Jon would kneel to Stannis rather than kicking him out; I just think that it is in Jon's character tbh. After all, Stannis probably saved Jon's life, tried to rescue "Arya," Rickon, etc.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

At first that was true. Stanis admits this himself. Then he realizes that he must save the realm to win the throne, not win the throne to save the realm. Davos reminds him of that, and he was the only king who cared. Hence why he is the only king who answer the call of the NW, and the king who will restore the Starks to WF and see the Boltons and Freys punished.

He's certainly not self-obsessed, whatever else he might be. Renly was an admitted traitor and a criminal. His death could have been cleaner, but his death was well deserved.

Not going to defend the burning people alive, but that isn't connected to his being the only king who cares about the realm.

He is human, but I would say that he is more admirable than all but a few- Davos, for instance, Brienne, Aemon, etc.

He answered the call of the Nights Watch when he had no other choice. He lost on the blackwater and ran with his tail between his legs to the wall in hopes of ultimately gaining more support for his self motivated cause.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

He answered the call of the Nights Watch when he had no other choice. He lost on the blackwater and ran with his tail between his legs to the wall in hopes of ultimately gaining more support for his self motivated cause.

1. Wrong, he definitely had a choice to ignore the call of the Night's Watch just like all the other Southron lords, yet he knew the stakes and knew what would happen if the Wildings won that battle, and knew it was his duty to save the Night's Watch. I see no selfish motive here.

2. Yes, he lost on the Blackwater only because he was led to believe he would win by Melisandre, and when he realized it was a lost cause once Tywin arrived, what choice would he have than to retreat. At least he was one of the only southron lords to take up a stance against Cercei and her lies. Stannis was the true heir to the throne and he was not going to die on the Blackwater just to die a noble death. He knew that if he died, the realm would be left to the hands of Cercei and her lies, therefore he retreated in a tactical move, not in cowardice.

Stannis is probably one of the most honourable characters in the novel, and is also one of my favorite characters. I just hate to see him being used by Melisandre for her other motives.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

He answered the call of the Nights Watch when he had no other choice. He lost on the blackwater and ran with his tail between his legs to the wall in hopes of ultimately gaining more support for his self motivated cause.

He had choices. Dorne, Essos, Stormlands, Vale, Riverlands, North (but not beyond the Wall.) Choosing to go beyond the Wall is only in his interests if he believes that he needs to save the realm, which he does believe.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Now what is with Stannis being a good guy? The guy is already half- mad if not more and he is going madder with every chapter. He is utterly spiteful, has no compassion, and if he is a good tactician which leaves to be desired in my opinion. He is definitely not a good leader. Stannis does not inspire men, he commands them and expects them to obey.

In a nutshell, he was an unlikeable fool from the start and now he is a mad unlikeable fool. If he lives through TWOW he won't live through ADOS.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×