Heresy 32

[Uncat]

@Eleana Thanks for the welcome. Nice to see, you'r still around

[Uncat]

Would be quite a reveal if the woman that patched Mances cloak was actually Melisandre heh.

Don't think she was, but I really love the thought. After all, who ever patched up Mance had this scarlett silk from Asshai.

Ok, now I'm starting to pick up on this. Mel was kind of stranded or even banished in the high Northnortwest of Westeros. All she had left was her magic and healing knowledge and a few things in a large wooden chest, she had saved. When Mance showed up, she helped him.

Then on so e point things started to get in motion and Mel made south to meet Stannis.

Ok. Stopped believing again. But still like the thought.

[Uncat]

There's something that's been bothering me of late, & wanted y'all's opinions & thoughts on the matter (it is off topic, but given the nature of this thread, off-topic post are what keeps it evolving)...

It all goes back to MMD's blood magic the night that Drogo was 'saved'... Shadows of the dead were seen dancing: A great wolf & a man wreathed in fire. I took this to me Eddard & Drogo's spirits.

But out of all the recently deceased people in the world, why were Eddard & Drogo the one's dancing? Proximity can be ruled out by Ned's presence... What is the author suggesting to the reader by Eddard & Drogo's spirits dancing? Are these spirits becoming one?

I have never understood the purpose of this scene... it must be important... will AA be a mixture of Eddard & Drogo?

--

Fast-Forward to post ADWD times. What is Mel decides that Jon Snow was AA, and breaks-out into her secret AA resurrection dance? Then the spirit of AA turns out to be 1/2 Drogo (warrior) and 1/2 Eddard (honor). This would allow AA to reforge Ice and kill Un-Cat in the forging to yield light-bringer. If I remember correctly, Dondarian's sword burned (like lightbringer) with his own blood, wouldn't Cat's blood the same for Ice? Does this help explain the scene with Drogo at the end of Season II on HBO?

This would mean that Jon's dream where he was wearing Black Ice would have been about AA, not himself... This also suggest that Jon will not get his body back (at least while AA lives).

I'm not sure that I believe this, just trying to explain the shadows dancing...

--

Let us not forget that the author has also led us to believe that Bran can bring people back from the dead...

--

I hope that you guys/girls can help me figure this crap out...

No idea. But I think, Uncat does not qualify for any Lightbringer magic. Not much love there to sacrifice and judging by Dondanrion, that, what she uses as blood is not the good, fresh stuff you would want to use for such kind of things. After all, she has been dead. But she is not much betrer now.

As for the wolf and the burning man, I was reminded of Rickard Stark ond the that one Targ who thought drinking wildfire was a good idea. But no real explanation

[Tyryan Lannister]

this talk about the wolf and burning man has me thinking about my theory on the magics (fire, ice, nature, with blood as an outsider present in all). maybe there are actually only three types: blood, ice, and fire, and that, while each can bring someone back in an "un" form, the only way to truly bring someone back from the dead is to use all three in harmony with each other? We know that MMD was using a blood magic ritual, and this ritual seems to utilize a wolf (one of the symbols of Ice) and a burning man (has connections to the Fire), so that's where my thoughts stem from

[Uncat]

Ok, here is a thought on Meereen: It is GRRM, who came up with this "battle of ice" and "battle of fire" thing. In his mind those events are connected.

I only took it as "the battle that happens to happen in the ice of the north" and the battle that happens to be fought with fire in Meereen.

But how about this:

It is actually the battle of Fire (capital F), in which the fire side has to fight itself free to head north. Meanwhile those, who will be on the ice side of events fight their own battle, the battle of Ice (cap I) to gather the North under a new Stark. Stannis fights that battle, but he aims at reinstating house Stark (the only reason, why the Northmen are following him).

It's like two gangs wanting to pick a fight in crowded club starting from two sides of the club. Before hammering away at each other, they need to fight of all the stupid people between them. And to complicate things all those people have their own agenda which is connected to what they see of the beginning fight.

Trouble is, that both gangs have lost their boss.

House Targaryen would have been the worldly leaders of the fire side (knowingly or not). House Stark would take up the Ice side. But both houses are gone with the wind. And even worse, their heirs are a little but stubborn about picking up their Jobs

For each of them, there is only on apparent leader left. But Jon is violently decided not to be the new Stark in Winterfell. And Danny got lost in Meereen and then she got physicaly lost on the back of Drogon.

Winterfell and Meereen are the two places where Ice and Fire need to fight through their troubles with all the others involved, before they can start the fight or song or whatever of Ice and Fire

So long post short:

I propose, that we take GRRM talking about an ice battle and a fire battle as hint, that those events a closely connected: The two parties are forming through battles and the parallel between house Stark and house Targ is taking even more shape.

Of course this would mean another thing: This interpretation implies that house Stark was once as much in with Ice as house Targ was and once again is in with Fire.

[Black Crow]

Would be quite a reveal if the woman that patched Mances cloak was actually Melisandre heh.

This is a complicated one. Somebody isn't telling the truth or at least the whole story and the red silk from Asshai going into Mance's cloak does look as though it might be significant, particularly given the rather strange collusion between Mance and Melisandre after his capture. While still strongly arguing for a connection (father and son) between Bloodraven and Craster, Mance is something else. Mance is on the other side.

The red silk from Asshai has to be a clue. The story is that after he got hurt Mance was taken to a woods witch, only she was dead and it was her daughter who did the patching up both of Mance and his cloak. The use of silk to patch the cloak is strange to say the least. Its a very useful, strong material, and when new is windproof, but its lighter than wool and isn't a warm material. Undergarments, linings, or lightweight outer ones for warm climates or warm rooms yes, but not for patching a woollen cloak. The fact the material was supposedly handed down, presumably because of its value, and then used to patch a stranger's heavy woollen cloak only makes it odder. Yet Mance is undoubtedly wearing it, which suggests its a symbol.

Now the question then arising is whether Mel is colluding with Mance because he's literally displaying his true colours in the red silk, or because she knows him of old, having sewn that silk into his cloak. There's no doubt from her POV that she came west with her chest of goodies to latch on to Stannis, so any earlier adventures beyond the Wall would require her to have gone home in the meantime, but if she was the witch what was she doing there? Was she really the daughter of the witch Mance's mates were looking for, or were the old woman and Mel one and the same under the glamour?

On balance I think that's perhaps both too complicated and a little scary, and that the answer is that Mance and Mel are working together because he's displaying the right recognition symbols; the red silk and perhaps other things we don't know, but that still doesn't answer the question of who he really is and why.

[Uncat]

And building up on this, this is, why the game of throwns is so important. It is not a side show hindering people to see the real threat and rendering Westeros week for the invasion of the Others.

The game of thrones is the f*g game, that always interfers with their song and which they need to f*g play in order to get their ducks in a row for what ever change of tune is about to come.

That makes it crucial for the plott. The plot only happens to happen this way because of the f*g game.

But the game is the game, man. Always

(and sorry for all those f-words. Can't use them at home any more. My kid frowns upon them (well at least that goes to show, that my education works :)))

[Toccs]

I tend more towards Craster being a Stark's son. Although I can see the reasoning for Bloodraven being the father. I just always got the impresson that Craster bears that heavy curse because of something much more ancient and something about his blood.

Bloodraven doesn't have an ancient history with the North and would have had to fathered Craser soon after his arrival at the Wall, I just don't see what would make his bloodline that important that Craster would bear a heavy curse. Stark blood on the other hand is known to be important to the ice side.

Also does that make Ramsay, Bloodraven's grandson. ;)

[Black Crow]

I've argued before that the "heavy curse" could imply generations of Crasters, I just think as discussed above that Whitetree is significant

ETA: Ramsay - Bloodraven's grandson???

[Toccs]

ETA: Ramsay - Bloodraven's grandson???

The Ramsay = Changeling (and possibly one of Craster's sons) theory, it's a favorite of mine.

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

There's a wiki entry on Craster where it says "Although the father's name is never mentioned, the name given to his son sounds very like Stark.". I checked all the chapters it references and couldn't find anything though. It always made me wonder if he was the son of a Karstark sent to the wall. He, having Stark blood could be useful to the others.

It would be even more interesting if it wasn't his father that was the ranger, but an ancestor who was a Greystark sent to the wall. The Greystarks being a the cadet branch of the Starks that were wiped out when they sided with the Boltons in a rebellion against the Starks. Course that fits even less, but I like the idea of a line of Craster's bearing the curse for rebelling against the Kings of WInter.

[TheTizer]

I'm fairly confident Jon will kill Mance, but don't think that's anything to do with his being a possible Targaryen. Blood will out (especially in Martin's World) and Jon's is Winter blood.

Ok, I know I'm very behind so there may be a few replies to old posts here!

But, why would Jon kill Mance? Mance seems quite a reasonable man and enemies of his enemy (Boltons).

Of course there is the whole wanting to bring down the wall thing though...

Tyryan Lannister, I love the theories. But possibly it will be the wall that kills Mance(Thor). Weilding the HoJ (similair name) he brings down the wall (The Giant) and the inevitabel destruction kills Mance, after all we are told that the HoJ is an extremely destructive force and is hard to control etc.

[King Minos]

First post here.

I really love your topics.Congrats to everyone for the great theories you explored.

What I want is to talk a bit for House Royce.

They exist since the First Men,a cadet branch (the now House Royce of the Gates of the Moon) had been married to the Starks and the main reason is that their word are We Remember (sounds similar to the North rememembers).What exactly should they remember?

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

First post here.

I really love your topics.Congrats to everyone for the great theories you explored.

What I want is to talk a bit for House Royce.

They exist since the First Men,a cadet branch (the now House Royce of the Gates of the Moon) had been married to the Starks and the main reason is that their word are We Remember (sounds similar to the North rememembers).What exactly should they remember?

Thats a good question. They're a family we don't hear a lot about. Bronze Yohn Royce is that guy with the Bronze Armor with Runes on it that he claims protect him from harm. Their house dates back to the First Men, and their sigil has runes on it. Maybe they're saying "We remember the old ways".

We don't hear of any reason for Waymar to be forced to go to the wall, which fits the northern style of a younger sons joining the watch.. Also Lysa mentions that Yohn is pressuring her to join the war of the five kings. We know that they visited Winterfell on the way to the wall when Ser Waymar joined so I don't think its a stretch to say that they have a relationship with the Starks, and might have been speaking in their favor.

[TheTizer]

I do agree that Jon is doomed, as I've mentioned before that imagery of the dying Cu Chulainn with the crow in his shoulder - first Mormont's, then his and always the Morrigan - is too good not to use. OK we've seen a foreshadowing of it with the faceless man on the bridge, but I can easily see it being rolled out with full orchestra for Jon

If we're getting into the Myths of Cuchulainn (thats the Irish spelling at least) then will we bring in Na Fianna and An Tain?

Both of these might have a bearing on the story, Also, Cuchalainn killed one of his good friends Ferdi very reluctantly during An Tain(Which means 'The War' or Battle) as they were on opposing sides. Any theories? In An Tain Cuchulainn pretty much single handedly defeats an army because he was such a beast (Jon Snow against the world anyone?)

Na Fianna were a troop of legandary heros who went around kicking ass and what not. They were led by Fionn Mac Cumhaill, an extra legandary hero. These guys were fairly independant and fought for who they pleased (BWB anyone?))

An Tain was a war between the queen of Connacht (who was a horrible, violent woman) and her Husband the King of Ulster I think he was. They started fighting over who had the better and most cattle. The only thing that seperated the two herds was the brown bull of Cuille (spelled poorly) that the husband owned. The Queen didnt like this at all and basically started a war to try and get it.

I'm fairly hazing about all these stories as I read them all in my youth so I will have to brush up a bit and dig out the books but what do you all think? Basic comparisons could be made no? Any theories of how they correspond?

[TheTizer]

Considering the many assumptions of this board: if Mance is the son of Bloodraven and a Craster's daughter, doesn't it make him part dragon and part wolf, just like Jon. Which establishes the validity of Yigritte's claim that Mance would want to have Ned Stark's bastard. Also, the whole business of how Jon is accepted by Mance almost indicates that the latter has a pretty good idea of who Jon actually is. So, it should not come as a surprise if Mance is the one revealing to Jon who his true parents are..

This ties in with Mance (Ferdia) Vs Jon (Cuchulainn) as they have some affilaition with eachother and don't particularly want to kill eachother but do so in a massive, epic battle that Mance dies in but Jon survives, barely.

[Uncat]

I seem to rember, that that the Royces were once the kings in the Vale. Maybe their words stem from this and are a warning to the Aryns: We rember, what were and who we were. Mybe something like the Nymeria thing in Dorne happened in the Vale to: The Andals come, marry the Aryns and together conquere the Vale. But I'm not sure about any of this. Just blabing.

[Priormuir Fergus]

On the subject of Crasters father, I haven't read the Dunk and Egg stories but it is my understanding that Bloodraven is the son of a King.

Therefore if we assume that BR is Crasters father then Crasters children would have some of that magical Kings blood, albeit a few generations removed from the actual King. Could this be the reason why the WW are using his children (for whatever purpose they are using them for) as opposed to just grabing random wildling children?

[Little Wing]

As I'm on my AGoT re-read, a very slow one unfortunately, I'd just like to run this by everyone - we see in Cat's POV when she enters the godswood to bring Ned news of Jon Arryn's death how she feels as though the heart tree's eyes were following her. Both Ned and Arya say they feel the eyes of dragon skulls followed them - to Arya when she ended up surrounded by them by accident and Ned when he recalls facing Jaime sitting on the throne after murdering Aerys (while riding into the throne room he remembers the feeling of the dragon skulls on the wall following him).

So, if this is Bloodraven watching from dragon skulls the same way he watches from trees - is there a connection between them? A property shared by both the white trees and black dragon skulls? Some spark of life left in both? If you destroy the trees, the spirits in them are lost - so if you destroy the dragon skulls, are only then the dragons permanently dead, all their trace wiped out?

Has there always been a trace of magic in the world because there were weirwoods and dragon skulls around? It's like, as long as both the white and black bones remember, there's same trace of magic in the world. Is it latent all the while, only to be awakened and made stronger by the presence of direwolves/wargs and dragons/dragon riders?

Edit - spelling

[TheTizer]

I know this seems a bit of a silly point to bring up, but in support of your theory @LittleWing in Skyrim it is the Dragon bones that are used to bring Dragons back into the world. This would suggest there is lore attached to Dragon bones as Skyrim being a fantasy game would of had to get it from somewhere!

This would also make sense in the different aspects of magics arguement, while 'nature' has trees/weirwood, 'Fire' has bones? And I would guess the 'Ice' aspect would be...snow??? :P