Stannis bands the knee to Targaryens?

[Grip]

We certainly have alot of BAMF's on this forum..I cant understand why people get so worked up about characters in the books, with comments such as this;

No, I want to see his cause in ashes and for him to die knowing his house has been scourged from the earth; with the smell of his own piss in his nostrils. His house got to humiliate and break the Targs easily last time. Now the Baratheons get to be weak, annialated and crushed. :devil:

What has poor Shireen done to deserve this fate? Atleast Stannis is a grown man, knowing full well what he has gotten himself into. Besides IIRC I have never seen anyone argue that what Tywin's men did to the Targ children at KL was good or justified, saying one wants to annihilate Stannis House is just bad when meaning that not only he himself would be killed but also his wife and only child.

[total1402]

We certainly have alot of BAMF's on this forum..I cant understand why people get so worked up about characters in the books, with comments such as this;

What has poor Shireen done to deserve this fate? Atleast Stannis is a grown man, knowing full well what he has gotten himself into. Besides IIRC I have never seen anyone argue that what Tywin's men did to the Targ children at KL was good or justified, saying one wants to annihilate Stannis House is just bad when meaning that not only he himself would be killed but also his wife and only child.

"Knowing" is different to reality. If Stannis dies he cannot sire a son and that means Shireen will lose her name when she marries. So Shireen does not have to die for House Baratheon to die. His wife, also, is a Florent who doesn't bear his heir, only his name unless she remarries.

Yes. Plenty of people justify the Targs being overthrown and killed. Including Robert and by extension Stannis. Fans who defend them also defend that since the end would have been the same. Neds POV implies that Robert was glad he didn't have to do the deed himself and his later actions with Dany show he certainly felt angry enough to do that.

More to the point the following sentence starts with "Seriously," which usually is used to denote that what went before is a joke and not to be taken literally. Only that it denotes a general dislike of Stannis, his fans and a desire to see him fail. I used to quite like Stannis; you know.

[E-Ro]

We certainly have alot of BAMF's on this forum..I cant understand why people get so worked up about characters in the books, with comments such as this;

What has poor Shireen done to deserve this fate? Atleast Stannis is a grown man, knowing full well what he has gotten himself into. Besides IIRC I have never seen anyone argue that what Tywin's men did to the Targ children at KL was good or justified, saying one wants to annihilate Stannis House is just bad when meaning that not only he himself would be killed but also his wife and only child.

Lol, I didnt even realise this. That is rather extreme, I have never wished for anyone(fictional or otherwise) to be burned alive and their line extinguished. That is shameful.

[Winter's Knight]

"Knowing" is different to reality. If Stannis dies he cannot sire a son and that means Shireen will lose her name when she marries. So Shireen does not have to die for House Baratheon to die. His wife, also, is a Florent who doesn't bear his heir, only his name unless she remarries.

Shireen being the last surviving Baratheon will retain her name after marriage.

[total1402]

Shireen being the last surviving Baratheon will retain her name after marriage.

Sansa/Tyrion. Since a father passes on his family name, unless Tyrion became Tyrion Stark in that situation her retaining her name would make little difference. The only precedent is Orys, a Targ bastard who took the Stormlord name, words and banner. So only if a bastard or lowborn married her would Shireen retain her name and have B children.

[Winter's Knight]

Sansa/Tyrion. Since a father passes on his family name, unless Tyrion became Tyrion Stark in that situation her retaining her name would make little difference. The only precedent is Orys, a Targ bastard who took the Stormlord name, words and banner. So only if a bastard or lowborn married her would Shireen retain her name and have B children.

Shireen would retain her name and her children would take hers. An example would be Harry Harding. If Robert Arryn dies, he'd inherit the Vale and take the Arryn name.

[total1402]

Shireen would retain her name and her children would take hers. An example would be Harry Harding. If Robert Arryn dies, he'd inherit the Vale and take the Arryn name.

Hes a man though and presumably a distant relation. So a name change is no issue. If you look at Sansa/Tyrion she has to take her colours off and have a Lannister one put on her. Theoreticlly although the marriage wasn't consumated that implies that she is actually Sansa Lannister and the children she had would have been called Lannisters. Elsewise she would have put a direwolf on Tyrion. This was done when she was believed to be the last living Stark. The same was also true when "Arya" married Ramsey and she was defineltly believed to be the last Stark; Ramsey remained a Bolton and Jeyne is now techniclly Arya Bolton.

If Shireen married she would give up the Baratheon name. The cases of females marrying males all proove this except for Orys Baratheon himself because he was a bastard with no name of his own (I think, maybe that was his name and he only took the house colours).

[TheGreyKraken]

Stannis is Iron, he will break before he bends.

[King.In.Yellow]

Right of conquest? Thats basically saying its mine cause ii took it with force. From the point of law its not that strong a point. I think Stannis is a bit crazy about laws (the fingers of Davos). I think if he decides that he is not the rightfull heir he would give up on the throne even if he had already conquered it by force.

Oh, is this so? Let me just inform the descendants of Louis XVI that they're the rightful kings of France.

Not to get offensive, but you take a very naive view of the law. The law is a threat of force, I. E., do this way or you will be punished by force. The law is neither eloquent nor convincing, but forceful. Right of conquest is just a right which cuts out the legal middle-man between force and act.

I'm a lawyer in real life, by the way. I gotta know these things. Though on this forum, I am King by right of conquest and ranking douchebaggery. Bend the knee or be destroyed. Rawr.

Sansa/Tyrion. Since a father passes on his family name, unless Tyrion became Tyrion Stark in that situation her retaining her name would make little difference. The only precedent is Orys, a Targ bastard who took the Stormlord name, words and banner. So only if a bastard or lowborn married her would Shireen retain her name and have B children.

The Storm King's name was Dunderron. Orys Baratheon was already named so when he landed with Aegon. I had this idea that Baratheon is a bastard name, kinda like Snow or Rivers, but Valyrian and pertaining to the Narrow Sea. Aegon and Orys would have had a vested interest in erasing this unpleasant fact from history.

[Starfell]

Hes a man though and presumably a distant relation. So a name change is no issue. If you look at Sansa/Tyrion she has to take her colours off and have a Lannister one put on her. Theoreticlly although the marriage wasn't consumated that implies that she is actually Sansa Lannister and the children she had would have been called Lannisters. Elsewise she would have put a direwolf on Tyrion. This was done when she was believed to be the last living Stark. The same was also true when "Arya" married Ramsey and she was defineltly believed to be the last Stark; Ramsey remained a Bolton and Jeyne is now techniclly Arya Bolton.

If Shireen married she would give up the Baratheon name. The cases of females marrying males all proove this except for Orys Baratheon himself because he was a bastard with no name of his own (I think, maybe that was his name and he only took the house colours).

In the case of Sansa and Arya/Jeyne Poole, the marriages were done under duress in order to appropriate Stark claims for another house though, they aren't a normal situation. In the case of the Mormont women, however, they have been quite able to pass their name down the female line in the absence of a male heir so it's certainly possible to do that.

Besides, this is Westeros, I imagine most of this stuff owes more to tradition and convention than to anything written in law.

[Lion of Judah]

It's mentioned in ADWD that Dany is a conqueror of sorts, which is why I think lines of succession should be tossed out when it comes to her. She is more a Queen Nymeria type IMO.

[devilrob6]

Stannis/Shireen aren't the last Baratheons. Tommen and Myrcella are still considered Baratheon's and Tommen is the one on the iron throne. Most people still believe them to be legal, or pretend to do so to protect their own interests. The incest claim can not be proven. Cersei is on trail for this, so if Robert Strong wins then she is innocent and the kids are legal. And i think this is a trial that the faith will want to lose. Stannis or Dany can call themselves king / queen as much as they want, they don't rule Westeros. Both of them will have to win the throne, even though Stannis should be the rightful king by law.

That said....Stannis bends for now one. He'll win or break.

[Rhoynar]

Taken from the wiki:

Since the Dance, House Targaryen has practiced a highly modified version of agnatic primogeniture, placing female claimants in the line of succession behind all possible male ones, even collateral relations. (See also Daena Targaryen, Daeron II). The war is the subject of the song "The Dance of the Dragons".

Here is the page: http://awoiaf.wester..._of_the_Dragons

http://www.westeros....CA_July_20_232/

So, the current line of succession is the following:

0. Aerys II

1. Rhaegar Targaryen

2. Aegon Targaryen / Aegon Targaryen

3. Viserys Targaryen

4. Robert Baratheon

5. Stannis Baratheon

6. Renly Baratheon

7. Doran Martell

8. Quentyn Martell

9. Trystane Martell

10. Oberyn Martell

11. Rhaenys Targaryen

12. Daenerys Targaryen

13. Shireen Baratheon

14. Arianne Martell

Right? So:

(Aegon?)

1. Stannis

2. Doran

3. Trystane

4. Daenerys

5. Shireen

6. Arianne

If Aegon happened to be a Blackfyre, would he come before the females?

[King.In.Yellow]

So, the current line of succession is the following:

Right? So:

(Aegon?)

1. Stannis

2. Doran

3. Trystane

4. Daenerys

5. Shireen

6. Arianne

If Aegon happened to be a Blackfyre, would he come before the females?

If Aegon is a Blackfyre he enters the line of succession about as much as Gendry, I. E., not at all. Blackfyres are bastards and exiled ones at that.

[Rhoynar]

If Aegon is a Blackfyre he enters the line of succession about as much as Gendry, I. E., not at all. Blackfyres are bastards and exiled ones at that.

Blackfyres were legitimized. They were just considered to be a cadet branch of House Targaryen.

[King.In.Yellow]

Blackfyres were legitimized. They were just considered to be a cadet branch of House Targaryen.

And then they rose up in betrayal. Last I checked, that wipes out any claim they had to the throne.

What befell the Blackfyres is what would have befallen the Baratheons if Robert had lost, what befell the Darklyns after the Defiance of Duskendale and what befell the Targaryens after Robert's rebellion.

Remember that the Baratheons are also a bastard cadet branch of House Targaryen, through Orys Baratheon.

[Johirrim]

There is no real line of succession. Who get to inherit what and when depends greatly on the situation, and who actually has the power to enforce the inheritance.

I am just gonna quote Martin on this.

Well, the short answer is that the laws of inheritance in the Seven Kingdoms are modelled on those in real medieval history... which is to say, they were vague, uncodified, subject to varying interpertations, and often contradictory.

A man's eldest son was his heir. After that the next eldest son. Then the next, etc. Daughters were not considered while there was a living son, except in Dorne, where females had equal right of inheritance according to age.

After the sons, most would say that the eldest daughter is next in line. But there might be an argument from the dead man's brothers, say. Does a male sibling or a female child take precedence? Each side has a "claim."

What if there are no childen, only grandchildren and great grandchildren. Is precedence or proximity the more important principle? Do bastards have any rights? What about bastards who have been legitimized, do they go in at the end after the trueborn kids, or according to birth order? What about widows? And what about the will of the deceased? Can a lord disinherit one son, and name a younger son as heir? Or even a bastard?

There are no clear cut answers, either in Westeros or in real medieval history. Things were often decided on a case by case basis. A case might set a precedent for later cases... but as often as not, the precedents conflicted as much as the claims.

[devilrob6]

If this is about the succession line for the throne, what are all those Targs still doing on the list?

[Rhoynar]

And then they rose up in betrayal. Last I checked, that wipes out any claim they had to the throne.

What befell the Blackfyres is what would have befallen the Baratheons if Robert had lost, what befell the Darklyns after the Defiance of Duskendale and what befell the Targaryens after Robert's rebellion.

Remember that the Baratheons are also a bastard cadet branch of House Targaryen, through Orys Baratheon.

I don't think rising in rebellion carries any consequences on your House's claims to the Throne, it doesn't make you a bastard. The thing is Targaryens thought Blackfyres a cadet branch, so Targaryens came before. But now there are no more Targaryen males.

What befell the Darklyns was pure physical retaliation from a crazy king. It doesn't have anything to do with rights.

[King.In.Yellow]

I don't think rising in rebellion carries any consequences on your House's claims to the Throne, it doesn't make you a bastard. The thing is Targaryens thought Blackfyres a cadet branch, so Targaryens came before. But now there are no more Targaryen males.

What befell the Darklyns was pure physical retaliation from a crazy king. It doesn't have anything to do with rights.

Oh, then I'll just inform Edmure Tully that he's still Lord Paramount of the Riverlands. Rising in rebellion against your liege lord is one of the surest ways of forfeiting your claims. Every failed rebel has lost his lands, except the Greyjoys who were lucky it was Robert defeating them, not Tywin, Aerys, Joffrey, Stannis, Eddard or any other king or Hand who's been known not to have Robert's half-ass attitude towards rebels.