Bran and Rickon's fate?

[linesofblaschko]

This whole post is a spoiler, so- while I don't know why you'd be reading here if you haven't seen the show- don't read this if this is a concern!

Is anyone else bothered by the fact that Theon keeps all information from leaving Winterfell after the "murder" of Bran and Rickon?

I was okay (sort of) with all the other plot changes, but this one seems so pointlessly confusing- it completely changes Catelyn and Robb's motivations from that point on. Hell, it basically disposes of their motivations entirely! If I recall correctly, no one outside of Winterfell has heard that Bran and Rickon are dead? I guess this means we're heading for some kind of Westeros-wide hunt for the two? The general emotions and tone of the books stay the same even with Talisa, with dragon-thieving, and amusing Arya/Tywin conversations, but everything changes if no one in Westeros thinks Bran and Rickon are dead. The book-Starks have gone from a powerful family headed by a war hero with 3 sons to just one boy (currently at war) left alive, while everything since Ned has been going just swell for the TV-Starks, aside from their terrible decision making. As a plot change, it just doesn't make sense, especially since they don't even need to kill anyone off to do it! I see all this talk about who would be in line for Winterfell and everyone seems to be ignoring that in TV-Westeros, Bran and Rickon are still presumed living.

Not to mention how it changed Robb's marriage from grief stricken mistake to pointless stupidity, and did the same with Catelyn's release of Jaime- which in turn ruined that perfectly poetic standstill they came to. One of the most well written parts of the whole series, just smashed. And turns the Starks from an appropriately desperate family in the worst of times to a bunch of moronic wannabe "players."

I just wanted to see if anyone felt the same way, since I only ever see complaints about Talisa, etc, which seems minor compared to this.

[dtones520]

Considering that the only two people with knowledge of Bran and Rickon actually being alive are Theon and Dagmar, and Dagmar will likely be killed by Ramsay when he hands Theon over, word will get to Robb that they are dead via Ramsay when he is told about Winterfell being destroyed. So, by the end of episode one the fate of Bran and Rickon will be assumed dead.

As for Catelyns motivation, due to Jaimes escape attempt and killing Karstarks son, Jaime was probably going to be killed without Robb's consent by Lord Rickard. Jaime dies, so does Sansa, so she makes the maternal decision to free Jaime and save Sansas life.

As for Robb and the Starks, you paint prettier picture than what it actually is. Robb's best friend, a guy he considered like a brother, betrayed him and captured his home and capital seat of the North. The North is being overtaken by the Ironborn. I'm not really sure how that is considered "swell." Not to mention they have no idea what Bran and Rickons fates are.

You call Robb marrying Talisa pointless stupidity, yet him marrying Jeyne wasn't? He married Jeyne because he, in grief, has sex with the daughter of one of his enemies bannermen and marries her because he feels like he dishonored her. Im not seeing the logic in that decision. He marries Talisa because he fell in love with her and thought the idea of marrying someone because he needed to cross a bridge was stupid. Another dumb decision, but both are equally stupid.

[Iotun]

One reason I think this might have run like this, is so that the only person claiming that Bran and Rickon were killed by Theon ends up being Ramsay. They can then show that the northern lords don't belive that Bran and Rickon are dead because they simply don't trust Ramsay, rather than have the convoluted and slightly ridiculous storyline of a mute Iron Islander following Rickon and Osha and being picked up by the Manderleys.

[YouSnowNothing]

I think the reason it was changed was to create a clearer seasonal arc for Catelyn. In S1 we saw the strong but caring matriarch, in S2 she's a grieving widow longing for her family but still doing what she must. In S3, we're going to see her fall apart. Her increased grief throughout the season, starting with the news of Bran&Rickon, through her father's death, to her final break during the horror of the Red Wedding. Then all this concentrated grief gives rise to Lady Stoneheart in the finale.

[Iotun]

I think the reason it was changed was to create a clearer seasonal arc for Catelyn. In S1 we saw the strong but caring matriarch, in S2 she's a grieving widow longing for her family but still doing what she must. In S3, we're going to see her fall apart. Her increased grief throughout the season, starting with the news of Bran&Rickon, through her father's death, to her final break during the horror of the Red Wedding. Then all this concentrated grief gives rise to Lady Stoneheart in the finale.

That could very well work. I've been confident that the last scene of the season would be Cercei accusing Tyrion of killing Joffrey as he dies in her arms, but I can see that as being the second to last scene, with the last one being an epilogue that ends with Lady Stoneheart making her first appearance.

[freetickles]

That could very well work. I've been confident that the last scene of the season would be Cercei accusing Tyrion of killing Joffrey as he dies in her arms, but I can see that as being the second to last scene, with the last one being an epilogue that ends with Lady Stoneheart making her first appearance.

Joffrey won't die till early in Season 4, but I do think Lady Stoneheart's appearance could be the last scene of season 3.

[So1ar]

Joffrey won't die till early in Season 4, but I do think Lady Stoneheart's appearance could be the last scene of season 3.

I don't think it will. I mean the RW will happen in episode 9 so that's pretty sudden if end of episode 10 she's back.

[linesofblaschko]

Considering that the only two people with knowledge of Bran and Rickon actually being alive are Theon and Dagmar, and Dagmar will likely be killed by Ramsay when he hands Theon over, word will get to Robb that they are dead via Ramsay when he is told about Winterfell being destroyed. So, by the end of episode one the fate of Bran and Rickon will be assumed dead.

As for Catelyns motivation, due to Jaimes escape attempt and killing Karstarks son, Jaime was probably going to be killed without Robb's consent by Lord Rickard. Jaime dies, so does Sansa, so she makes the maternal decision to free Jaime and save Sansas life.

As for Robb and the Starks, you paint prettier picture than what it actually is. Robb's best friend, a guy he considered like a brother, betrayed him and captured his home and capital seat of the North. The North is being overtaken by the Ironborn. I'm not really sure how that is considered "swell." Not to mention they have no idea what Bran and Rickons fates are.

You call Robb marrying Talisa pointless stupidity, yet him marrying Jeyne wasn't? He married Jeyne because he, in grief, has sex with the daughter of one of his enemies bannermen and marries her because he feels like he dishonored her. Im not seeing the logic in that decision. He marries Talisa because he fell in love with her and thought the idea of marrying someone because he needed to cross a bridge was stupid. Another dumb decision, but both are equally stupid.

You're right that I may have overstated a few points- calling the situation "swell" was a bit glib, what I meant was that up to this point in the TV story, Robb and Catelyn are running a successful war campaign and most of the Starks are alive and well (as far as they know), giving them little reason to act as rashly as they have been. What made sense in the book (making stupid mistakes in the wake of grief) was turned into simply making stupid mistakes.

However, all of these responses have helped me see how this could work out in the long run. I was disappointed that we didn't see the reactions to the loss of Bran and Rickon, and felt that the obliteration of the line of Stark heirs was a major turning point that should have occurred before Robb's marriage and the release of Jaime, but I guess that arc could work itself out in the next season.

[StannisEndGame]

People do remember lines like:

"The Kingslayer won't last the night. When the Karstarks draw their swords, who wants to die defending a Lannister?"

"Lady Stark, I believe this is my last night in this world."

They actually made Catelyns decision much more logical in the tv series than in the books.

[SerMixalot]

I just hopethe TV show has the courage to have Robb kill Lord Karstark

[Iotun]

That could very well work. I've been confident that the last scene of the season would be Cercei accusing Tyrion of killing Joffrey as he dies in her arms, but I can see that as being the second to last scene, with the last one being an epilogue that ends with Lady Stoneheart making her first appearance.

Not to derail the thread, but as far as I know, there's not been any confirmation that the PW won't be in Season 3, and as I've argued in the thread dedicated to the subject, I'm completely confident it will be in.

[Ty3009]

I don't think there's any question that word will get out about Bran and Rickon this season. D&D simply held off on it until now. Catelyn's motivation was made clear based on them hammering home the point that Jaimie wasn't going to live unless she freed him to negotiate the girls' return. Still a remarkable leap of faith on her part but that's true of BookCat as well.

[Nezzer]

I also shared the opinions of the OP, but the others have made some very good points and now I approve of this change.

I just hopethe TV show has the courage to have Robb kill Lord Karstark

Don't worry, in one of those inside the set videos there's a scene of Lord Karstark talking about vengeance to Robb, and there's also another scene where Robb is pointing his sword down to something inside a castle. Apparently, he's going to chop his head off with a sword instead of an axe, that's the only change I know of.

[Khal-a-bunga]

Not to derail the thread, but as far as I know, there's not been any confirmation that the PW won't be in Season 3, and as I've argued in the thread dedicated to the subject, I'm completely confident it will be in.

Not to also de-rail the thread, but it's all but guaranteed that the Purple Wedding won't be in this season.

On-topic: The reasoning behind Bran & Rickon not being confirmed dead in season two has been well explained already, but it's also likely that it will play in to keeping Theon involved in season three, as well.