Tyrell loyalty to the Mad King

[Minstral]

Lately I have come to doubt that the Tyrell's had any true loyalty to the Targaryen's during the rebellion against the Mad King. The Reach may have sided with the Iron Throne, but the only actions that they take is in defense of their own lands at Ashford and the relatively dull task of besieging Storms End. Mace Tyrell would have been able to leave a smaller army to besiege Storms End and achieved the same result (an inconclusive siege) and taken a good portion of his strength to make all the difference in the Riverlands. While I was wieghing these points something else pooped into my head, and that was the way that Mace Tyrell and his bannermen react to certain events.

Mace is shown to be not the brightest of individuals, yet he has an appetite for power. After House Targaryen is deposed he makes no attempt to restore his former overlords to power and instead tries to work through House Baratheon to increase the influence of Highgarden. Furthermore, the Tyrell's as a whole seem to try to better their lot at the Lannister court (trying to marry Sansa into their family, and appointing family and Bannermen to the Small Council). They are not a mysterious bunch, they want power and they want theirs to be a stable, they will not abide by the chaos of vicious and chaotic kings as in the example of Joffery. As to why they remained loyal to the Targaryen's yet played an indecisive role in Robert's war can be hinted at from their own bannermen.

From what we have seen in the Blackfyre rebellions the nobility of the Reach has been extremely divided in their support for loyalist and rebel factions. This is hinted in ADWD by a member of the Golden Company when he states that" the power of the Reach is not what it seems, even a century later we still have friends there". If we were to look for Targaryen loyalists in the Reach I would suggest Mathis Rowan judging Tyrion's reaction to how he nearly threw up when he was reminded of the the murder of the royal family, and Randyll Tarly when he is insisting that Ageon "must not be real" stronger than any person present at the small council in the last chapter of ADWD. Comparing these reactions with other Reachmen in boht cases: Redwayne is noted by Tyrion to not care in the slightest as opposed to Rowan, and Mace dismisses Ageon as a pretender without any thought.

So where am I going with this?

It is my belief that if the Tyrell's tried to stay neutral or take the side of Robert then they would have seen many of their bannermen march in support of the Targaryens. This would have been more damaging to their status of Lord Paramount of the Reach then simply picking the losing side as they did, as it would destroy what authority they have compiled for at least a generation. So to appease a powerful loyalist faction within their ranks the Tyrell's quickly gathered their Bannermen for a quick response to the threat Robert poised at Ashford (Tarly engaging the whole of Robert's army with just the vanguard may show him as very eager to combat the "Usurper"), and then proceeded to play a non decisive role for the rest of the war.

[Valyrian Spoon]

Yeah I've always thought that Mace Tyrell was sort of fence sitting during the Rebellion. As you have mentioned the siege of Storms End could have occured with a much smaller force. Also, the battle of Ashford although a victory for Loyalist forces under Randyll Tarly seems strange. Knowing the type of man Tarly is it seems strange that having won the battle he didn't try and pursue and finish the Rebels.

Considering that Dorne was Loyal to the Mad King there is no justification for Tyrell to not have sent at least a token force to the Trident. Imo he was waiting to see which side Tywin Lannister came down on and to hedge his bets he stayed nominally loyal to the Targs.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

:agree:

You said it all. The Tyrells are the weakest Lord Paramount of them all, being upjumped stewards rewarded for cowardice. They have to appease their bannermen left and right.

[Blackfish Tully]

I wonder if the reason that they were not more involved with fighting against Robert's rebellion was that Aerys did not want them involved because he did not trust them. That would make sense if he thought that there were a lot of Blackfyre loyalist still in the Reach and he was paranoid that they would betray him if they got the chance.

[MotherAnduin]

Not only was Mace hedging his bets, Rhaegar dropped the ball (again!) when dealing with Mace. He could have ordered Mace to give up more men or ordered him to storm Storm's End. Rhaegar's arrogance was a major factor in his army's composition and eventual loss.

[locke and key]

probably joined them more because they thought targs would win and that if they joined them they would be awarded with greater power like maybe marrying into each others or perhaps in best possible scenarion being lord paramounts of the stormlands as well as the baratheons would all be extinguished by the targs if aerys remained king rhaegar would probaly be a lot kinder to the rebels .

[HODOR! HODOR!!]

Does anyone know if the entire Reach army was besieging Storm's End? 70,000 troops seems like an absurdly excessive number for a siege of a single castle, regardless of how important that castle is. If that's the case, Mace could have easily sent half, or even a third, of his force to join Rhaegar on the Trident to give him a clear numerical advantage. The fact that the didn't shows that his support was not fully genuine, and perhaps (as has been said) only done to appease some of his more powerful bannermen.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Does anyone know if the entire Reach army was besieging Storm's End? 70,000 troops seems like an absurdly excessive number for a siege of a single castle, regardless of how important that castle is. If that's the case, Mace could have easily sent half, or even a third, of his force to join Rhaegar on the Trident to give him a clear numerical advantage. The fact that the didn't shows that his support was not fully genuine, and perhaps (as has been said) only done to appease some of his more powerful bannermen.

That's terribly unlikely. 20,000 men are about the limit for an army in hostile country before they start starving. Granted, at Storms End they could be fed by the Redwyne Fleet, but it's nevertheless extremely difficult.

And since Stannis had only ~500 men in Storms End, something with four digits would be more than enough to keep him there.

[Valyrian Spoon]

That's terribly unlikely. 20,000 men are about the limit for an army in hostile country before they start starving. Granted, at Storms End they could be fed by the Redwyne Fleet, but it's nevertheless extremely difficult.

And since Stannis had only ~500 men in Storms End, something with four digits would be more than enough to keep him there.

Yep Mace could have kept Stannis pinned up with 4-5000 and still send 10'000 plus to the Trident. He was definately hedging his bets.

[HODOR! HODOR!!]

That's terribly unlikely. 20,000 men are about the limit for an army in hostile country before they start starving. Granted, at Storms End they could be fed by the Redwyne Fleet, but it's nevertheless extremely difficult.

And since Stannis had only ~500 men in Storms End, something with four digits would be more than enough to keep him there.

Okay that makes infinitely more sense than having 70,000 troops there. It's kind of funny that he was hedging his bets on the outcome when his full support for the Targs would have tipped the scales massively in their favor.

[Darth Visenya]

I don't see why everyone wouldn't be loyal to Aerys, he made a life of drudgery an Lordship more interesting, who knew what would happen next time you went to Kings Landing.

[Valyrian Spoon]

Okay that makes infinitely more sense than having 70,000 troops there. It's kind of funny that he was hedging his bets on the outcome when his full support for the Targs would have tipped the scales massively in their favor.

I think it's possible that GRRM may have decided that The Reach could field close to a 100,000 men after he had them side and ultimately do nothing in staying loyal to the Targs. As you point out, doing the bare minimum when your involvement practically guarantee's a victory (and grattitude) for what ever side you choose is quite weird.

[Naathi Prince]

Mace Tyrell's action in RR were pretty obvious, don't ruffle feathers. He supported the Mad King, sure, but why wouldn't he? None of his family members were murdered and Aerys was his liege lord. He also had no marriage alliances with any of the regions who were rising up in rebellion. So he took the prudent course, he invested Storm's End, without a direct assault.

[Winter's Prince]

I have long believed the Tyrells are still loyal to the Targs, and will support Aegon.

[Minstral]

I have long believed the Tyrells are still loyal to the Targs, and will support Aegon.

That would be pretty counterproductive to all they have tried to accomplish with their marriage to the Iron Throne at this point. As the Queen of Thorns puts it with her lovely cow metaphor, they are now forced to play their role to the bloody end. Viserys once thought that half the kingdoms would support his restoration from the Tyrell's, Redwayne's, and Greyjoy's. Well the Greyjoy's have now crowned themselves a second time, Lord Redwyne is noted to not care in the slightest by Tyrion, and Mace is now "erecting" the biggest penis envy symbol in the seven kingdoms to celebrate his ascendance to Hand of Tonmmen..

[True_lord_of_york]

When did viserys ever say the greyjoys or any of the family's would help him. I don't think he ever specifically says any names and he is just deluded by his arrogance and ignorance that he just thinks that the lords of westeros actually hate the usurper and his dogs. We know he was an utter fool though

[Minstral]

When did viserys ever say the greyjoys or any of the family's would help him. I don't think he ever specifically says any names and he is just deluded by his arrogance and ignorance that he just thinks that the lords of westeros actually hate the usurper and his dogs. We know he was an utter fool though

While I agree he was blinded by arrogance, as I recall he makes a list of houses that he expects to declare for him when he made a landing in Westeros. He included house Darry and Martell as well.

[Rheagar Prime]

always thought so as well. Still as QoT said mace was an idiot any way as a matter of fact so was rhaegar. For not taking Tarly and some other reach men with him.

[Ramsay Gimp]

There were men from the Reach at the Trident, not all of them were at Storm's End. Martin said so in a SSM

It's possible that the Tyrells felt that they owed a debt to the Targs, only gaining Highgarden in the first place because of Aegon's favor.

[Lord Damian]

Kevan realizes late in his game that Randall Tarly is the real threat/military man behind the Reach.