Jaime, Tywin, and Tyrion: The better soldier?

[Jaime's Wench]

Ah, okay. In this case I do agree with you, then. I think where I was diverging with you was that I was thinking of 'good' as 'capable' and I do think that you can be a capable leader without necessarily being a good person. But I agree with the 'better to be loved then feared' philosophy, as I think the best leaders are the ones who can inspire and in turn create devotion.

I agree - you can be capable, like Tywin. But the fearful will eventually catch up with you, like Tyrion did to Tywin!

And I'm sick and tired of you misinterpreting people's posts on purpose for the sake of argument and going on about how cerceis kids could be Roberts, and how renly somehow had a better claim to the throne then stannis.

I don't think Luis has said anything unreasonable.

What "bloodbath" has Stannis been directly responsible for? The Battle of Blackwater? Castle Black? Deepwood Motte? War is war, and TWo5K is much bigger than just Stannis himself. Accusing him of being singlehandedly responsible for it is outright ridiculous.

I don't think anyone is saying he's wholly responsible, but he played his part in perpetuating the war. He still is playing that part.

[DogLover]

I kind of feel like you're twisting my words around, to be honest. I was trying to say that the fact that she is a slave and cannot give consent should have set off warning bells in Tyrion's head immediately. But I should have quoted the part where he first realized they were slaves, to be fair, which was earlier.

Yep. And, actually, warning bells do go off in Tyrion's head. He realizes she's a slave (notes the scars from whipping on her back), understand she does not want to have sex with him, has sex with her anyways, feels shitty for doing it, and then DOES IT AGAIN.

Regarding your earlier comment about Tyrion having the capability of being a better person than Tywin, yes, he does. Which is what makes Tyrion so damn frustrating. He often chooses NOT to take the high road and do the honorable thing.

[LuisDantas]

Who did he murder without reason? And asha was an enemy that fought against him lyanna was going about her business not bothering anyone.

Renly Baratheon, Alester Florent, Cortnay Penrose, to mention the first three to come to mind.

A lot more in Storm's End and at the Blackwater as well.

Even his northern campaign is tainted with an endless string of unnecessary murders. See for instance the first few lines of page 471 of ADWD.

[Jaime's Wench]

Yep. And, actually, warning bells do go off in Tyrion's head. He realizes she's a slave (notes the scars from whipping on her back), understand she does not want to have sex with him, has sex with her anyways, feels shitty for doing it, and then DOES IT AGAIN.

Regarding your earlier comment about Tyrion having the capability of being a better person than Tywin, yes, he does. Which is what makes Tyrion so damn frustrating. He often chooses NOT to take the high road and do the honorable thing.

But what about all the times when he does take the high road? Like with Sansa - who was going to go through with her wedding night and suffer in silence, but he couldn't go through with it?

And the fact that, despite everything, he never did harm Cersei?

Tyrion was in a very dark place in ADWD. That doesn't excuse him. It just makes him so much more interesting as a character.

@Luis - support Penrose in the eg!!!!

[LuisDantas]

And I'm sick and tired of you misinterpreting people's posts on purpose for the sake of argument and going on about how cerceis kids could be Roberts, and how renly somehow had a better claim to the throne then stannis.

I take offense at that. You are accusing me of ill faith, and I don't take that lightly.

[Éadaoin]

I don't think Luis has said anything unreasonable.

I think it's odd that he chose to come after me when more questionable things were said, tbh.

[RenlyIsNotRight]

Renly Baratheon, Alester Florent, Cortnay Penrose, to mention the first three to come to mind.

Renly had no right to proclaim himself King, and if I might add was gloating light heartedly about killing his brother just before "Stannis killed" him (and if anything, Melisandre was more directly responsible for his death honestly). Oh and for the record, by "killing" Renly Stannis actually saved the lives of thousands of men, bannermen who were with both him and Renly at the time. So that sounds like a pretty good reason to "murder" someone to me.

Alester Florent...ehh, that's one thing I'll admit I can't really defend, but again, you're placing something that was really more Melisandres doing than Stannis' on Stannis.

As for Penrose...see Renly.

[The Dornishman's Wife]

I take offense at that. You are accusing me of ill faith, and I don't take that lightly.

Showing good faith instead might be an alternative.

[LuisDantas]

Saying that someone is implying that rape is not problematic is a pretty serious accusation, so I'm sure you can understand why I'm offended.

I would as well. But in my defense, I did point out that I found it weird. That ought to be better than just taking your statement for granted as I understood it.

[LuisDantas]

Showing good faith instead might be an alternative.

Tell E-Ro that.

[Jaime's Wench]

Renly has a greater right to the crown to Stannis. He has more bannermen supporting him. He has more power.

Stannis had to resort to dark arts to override this, making his whole campaign tainted by evil.

[Porcelain Steel]

Yep. And, actually, warning bells do go off in Tyrion's head. He realizes she's a slave (notes the scars from whipping on her back), understand she does not want to have sex with him, has sex with her anyways, feels shitty for doing it, and then DOES IT AGAIN.

Regarding your earlier comment about Tyrion having the capability of being a better person than Tywin, yes, he does. Which is what makes Tyrion so damn frustrating. He often chooses NOT to take the high road and do the honorable thing.

Yes, this! One of the things I've always really enjoyed about Tyrion as a character is that he's perceptive and very self aware-sometimes this makes him likeable, but in other ways it can make him really unlikeable, because he knows when he's doing things that aren't right..he chooses his worst nature over his better frequently.

But what about all the times when he does take the high road? Like with Sansa - who was going to go through with her wedding night and suffer in silence, but he couldn't go through with it?

And the fact that, despite everything, he never did harm Cersei?

Tyrion was in a very dark place in ADWD. That doesn't excuse him. It just makes him so much more interesting as a character.

This is true too, and I agree about it making him interesting, but these instances of his better nature make his trip to the dark side all the more frustrating to me. But I do see how someone could feel differently.

[Éadaoin]

I would as well. But in my defense, I did point out that I found it weird. That ought to be better than just taking your statement for granted as I understood it.

As long as you understand that I wasn't excusing rape we're fine. I guess I found your accusation almost as bizarre as you found my post.

[RenlyIsNotRight]

Renly has a greater right to the crown to Stannis. He has more bannermen supporting him. He has more power.

Are you fucking kidding me? By your logic, Mace Tyrell should be on the Iron Throne.

Robert had no legitimate children, and Stannis was his eldest brother, therefore the next in line to the throne. What is so fucking hard to understand about that?

[Jaime's Wench]

Yes, this! One of the things I've always really enjoyed about Tyrion as a character is that he's perceptive and very self aware-sometimes this makes him likeable, but in other ways it can make him really unlikeable, because he knows when he's doing things that aren't right..he chooses his worst nature over his better frequently.

This is exactly why I love him. Like a couple of the male characters in my novel, he makes some really bad choices and then it's all about what he does about it.

[Jaime's Wench]

Are you fucking kidding me? By your logic, Mace Tyrell should be on the Iron Throne.

Robert had no legitimate children, and Stannis was his eldest brother, therefore the next in line to the throne. What is so fucking hard to understand about that?

Yes, maybe Mace should be.

Come to my History lesson period 1 tomorrow and we'll debate this exact question. My Year 7s will not consider my stance so stupid.

[DogLover]

But what about all the times when he does take the high road? Like with Sansa - who was going to go through with her wedding night and suffer in silence, but he couldn't go through with it?

And the fact that, despite everything, he never did harm Cersei?

Tyrion was in a very dark place in ADWD. That doesn't excuse him. It just makes him so much more interesting as a character.

@Luis - support Penrose in the eg!!!!

I said "often", not "never". I give him points for not forcing Sansa to have sex with him, but considering he willingly forced her into an unwanted marriage, he's still in the negative.

He poisoned Cersei.

I never said he wasn't a fascinating character. As hard as I am on him, he's still one of my favorites. He has one of the best POVs (except ADwD).

[The Dornishman's Wife]

My Year 7s will not consider my stance so stupid.

Or they'll be thrown out of the window, right? :devil:

[Jaime's Wench]

I said "often", not "never". I give him points for not forcing Sansa to have sex with him, but considering he willingly forced her into an unwanted marriage, he's still in the negative.

Tywin, not Tyrion

He poisoned Cersei.

He knocked her out... for her own good.

[Porcelain Steel]

This is exactly why I love him. Like a couple of the male characters in my novel, he makes some really bad choices and then it's all about what he does about it.

Yeah, I will say that because of this, I think he's brilliantly written, it's just that my feelings about him as a character are all over the place...but this is a testament to him feeling very real.