Jaime, Tywin, and Tyrion: The better soldier?

[Black Wolf Smith]

Didn't you answer your own question?

Jaime was a great knight, not really a soldier, but the closest of the 3.

Tywin was great commander of men.

Tyrion was had wit, and likely could have been a great tactician.

[RenlyIsNotRight]

Yes, maybe Mace should be.

Come to my History lesson period 1 tomorrow and we'll debate this exact question. My Year 7s will not consider my stance so stupid.

By modern standards you may be right, but this is Westeros. Even the Targaryens were never the wealthiest or most powerful of the great houses of Westeros, they won it through right of conquest, and the Baratheons won it from them, and being the eldest legitimate Baratheon, Stannis has the best claim to the Iron Throne of Westeros. I'm not saying we in the real world should go back to fuedelism, but I don't read ASOIAF to think about the type of social change that should be brought about in Westeros.

[Runaway Penguin]

Soldier?

Jaime before his hand is chopped off.

Lower level Commander? Tywin, though he needs tactical advice (and no, loping out eyes of outriders who didn't spot enemies won't help in them doing better job, too draconian punishments for small failures lead to desertions and overall bad performance)

Army commander? All three (Jaime after his amputation and "rebirth", Tyrion if kept off bottle), all have good organisational skills. Jaime after change better tactics, Tywin and Tyrion organizing.

Ideal Lannister army, frankly, would be "New" Jaime as CinC and Imp as chief of staff.

[Jaime's Wench]

By modern standards you may be right, but this is Westeros. Even the Targaryens were never the wealthiest or most powerful of the great houses of Westeros, they won it through right of conquest, and the Baratheons won it from them, and being the eldest legitimate Baratheon, Stannis has the best claim to the Iron Throne of Westeros. I'm not saying we in the real world should go back to fuedelism, but I don't read ASOIAF to think about the type of social change that should be brought about in Westeros.

Exactly why I say Mace has the same claim, in some ways. Right of conquest --- he is much closer to getting that throne than Stannis right now.

Yeah, I will say that because of this, I think he's brilliantly written, it's just that my feelings about him as a character are all over the place...but this is a testament to him feeling very real.

Exactly. If he made only the right choices, he wouldn't feel real

[E-Ro]

Or she fell in love?

How would robert or ned know that?

[Jaime's Wench]

How would robert or ned know that?

Perhaps if they didn't gallop down there with a war hammer swinging? Perhaps if they had bothered to write a letter and ask her?

[E-Ro]

Renly Baratheon, Alester Florent, Cortnay Penrose, to mention the first three to come to mind.

A lot more in Storm's End and at the Blackwater as well.

Even his northern campaign is tainted with an endless string of unnecessary murders. See for instance the first few lines of page 471 of ADWD.

None of those were without reason. Renly would have killed him, as would penrose. Of all those the only one he killed that was wrong was florent. But even then florent had gone against his wishes and tried to sell his daughter to lannisters.

I take offense at that. You are accusing me of ill faith, and I don't take that lightly.

Well your just going to have to deal with it, you called me out first after all.

[E-Ro]

Perhaps if they didn't gallop down there with a war hammer swinging? Perhaps if they had bothered to write a letter and ask her?

Were would they send this letter?

[Jaime's Wench]

Were would they send this letter?

On the claw of a crow heading to Dragonstone?

[E-Ro]

Renly has a greater right to the crown to Stannis. He has more bannermen supporting him. He has more power.

Stannis had to resort to dark arts to override this, making his whole campaign tainted by evil.

This is silly, Renly had more power yet hes the one that ended up dead? Having more support does not make you right. Hitler had a ton of support, was he in the right?

[RenlyIsNotRight]

Exactly why I say Mace has the same claim, in some ways. Right of conquest --- he is much closer to getting that throne than Stannis right now.

That's all well and good, but as of Roberts death, before Renly or Robb or anyone else had declared themselves, by the laws of Westeros the Iron Throne belonged to Stannis.

Now I'm all for Right of Conquest when it involves the deposition of a tyrant *cough*Aerys*cough*, but Stannis hadn't even been given a chance to rule yet before Renly brazenly decided he should be king instead. If Renly was really as politically savvy as all his fans like to think he is, he would have stood behind his brother in taking KL from The Lannisters - perhaps with that they could have even secured an alliance with The North et al to make it happen, and then plotted his downfall behind the scenes once his position as Stannis' heir (which he would have gotten anyway) was secure.

Of course, this would not be a morally right thing to do, nor would I want it to happen, and the terms Stannis gave Renly were quite fair and in my opinion, pretty desirable for someone who'd want to be king. Knowing Stannis' sex life (or lack thereof) with Selyse there's little chance he would have produced a male heir before his death, so Renly would have more than likely secceeded him. Instead, Renly chose a path that was just as if not more morally questionable than what Stannis ultimately ended up doing, and led to his downfall.

Of course at this point I'm not talking about right to kingship so much anymore, but more addressing the whole "omg Renly was charming and good looking and stuff so he was better than Stannis" crowd...

[Naathi Prince]

I would probably prefer Jaime as a commander, he leads from the front and is a terrific swordsman and a huge potential target. At Whispering Woods, all of the best northern fighters all basically rushed at Jaime, so it would make things easier for everyone fighting with him.

[Naathi Prince]

That's all well and good, but as of Roberts death, before Renly or Robb or anyone else had declared themselves, by the laws of Westeros the Iron Throne belonged to Stannis.

Now I'm all of Right of Conquest when it involves the deposition of a tyrant *cough*Aerys*cough*, but Stannis hadn't even been given a chance to rule yet before Renly brazenly decided he should be king instead. If Renly was really as politically savvy as all his fans like to think he is, he would have stood behind his brother in taking KL from The Lannisters - perhaps with that they could have even secured an alliance with The North et al to make it happen, and then plotted his downfall behind the scenes once his position as Stannis' heir (which he would have gotten anyway) was secure.

Of course, this would not be a morally right thing to do, nor would I want it to happen, and the terms Stannis gave Renly were quite fair and in my opinion, pretty desirable for someone who'd want to be king. Knowing Stannis' sex life (or lack thereof) with Selyse there's little chance he would have produced a male heir before his death, so Renly would have more than likely succeeded him. Instead, Renly chose a path that was just as if not more morally questionable than what Stannis ultimately ended up doing, and led to his downfall.

Of course at this point I'm not talking about right to kingship so much anymore, but more addressing the whole "omg Renly was charming and good looking and stuff so he was better than Stannis" crowd...

It was so stupid for Renly to rebel the way he did. He should have seized Kings Landing, and then negotiated with Stannis to ensure he came before Shireen in the succession. After all, it was well known that Stannis and Selyse weren't likely to produce a male heir.

[RenlyIsNotRight]

It was so stupid for Renly to rebel the way he did. He should have seized Kings Landing, and then negotiated with Stannis to ensure he came before Shireen in the succession. After all, it was well known that Stannis and Selyse weren't likely to produce a male heir.

Lets also not forget that the way Renly wanted to go about it would have resulted in the deaths of bannermen and men at arms of Dragonstone, Storm's End and The Reach as well as his brothers. What "Stannis" did led to a grand total of one casualty, but because it happened to be his brother, Stannis is made out to be the bad guy in the situation, even if Renly made it clear he intended on doing the same thing.

[Jaime's Wench]

This is silly, Renly had more power yet hes the one that ended up dead? Having more support does not make you right. Hitler had a ton of support, was he in the right?

Yes. Stannis won through sorcery. Had Renly fucked Mel, the outcome would have gone in his favour. Hitler was not right, but he was what Germany wanted. He lost power by being over-ambitious, not because of his morality.

That's all well and good, but as of Roberts death, before Renly or Robb or anyone else had declared themselves, by the laws of Westeros the Iron Throne belonged to Stannis.

Now I'm all for Right of Conquest when it involves the deposition of a tyrant *cough*Aerys*cough*, but Stannis hadn't even been given a chance to rule yet before Renly brazenly decided he should be king instead. If Renly was really as politically savvy as all his fans like to think he is, he would have stood behind his brother in taking KL from The Lannisters - perhaps with that they could have even secured an alliance with The North et al to make it happen, and then plotted his downfall behind the scenes once his position as Stannis' heir (which he would have gotten anyway) was secure.

Of course, this would not be a morally right thing to do, nor would I want it to happen, and the terms Stannis gave Renly were quite fair and in my opinion, pretty desirable for someone who'd want to be king. Knowing Stannis' sex life (or lack thereof) with Selyse there's little chance he would have produced a male heir before his death, so Renly would have more than likely secceeded him. Instead, Renly chose a path that was just as if not more morally questionable than what Stannis ultimately ended up doing, and led to his downfall.

Of course at this point I'm not talking about right to kingship so much anymore, but more addressing the whole "omg Renly was charming and good looking and stuff so he was better than Stannis" crowd...

Why should Renly have to wait until he's old to rule when he's got powerful bannermen pledging support in the present?

[Naathi Prince]

Yes. Stannis won through sorcery. Had Renly fucked Mel, the outcome would have gone in his favour. Hitler was not right, but he was what Germany wanted. He lost power by being over-ambitious, not because of his morality.

Why should Renly have to wait until he's old to rule when he's got powerful bannermen pledging support in the present?

Because Renly is not the King, and because the King is not a tyrant. Renly's entire reasoning for failing to support his brother was "but you are boring!" A boring King is perfect. Renly could have been his flamboyant and popular Hand.

[Jaime's Wench]

Because Renly is not the King, and because the King is not a tyrant. Renly's entire reasoning for failing to support his brother was "but you are boring!" A boring King is perfect. Renly could have been his flamboyant and popular Hand.

True, but why be Hand when you can be king?

[E-Ro]

True, but why be Hand when you can be king?

Morality? Maybe some people want to do the right thing, and put their elder siblings first since that's the law?

[Naathi Prince]

True, but why be Hand when you can be king?

Because its easier

[RenlyIsNotRight]

Why should Renly have to wait until he's old to rule when he's got powerful bannermen pledging support in the present?

If you're referring to the bannermen of Storm's End, they were going to follow Renly no matter what because he was their liege lord. They would have just as readily fought under Stannis if Renly declared for Stannis, just as they readily declared for Stannis as their new liege lord once Renly was killed.

As for Renlys reach bannermen...sure, they weren't technically obligated to follow him, and the way the TV show makes it out to look they were the ones who planted the idea to be king in Renlys head, but even so, surely they would not have openly joined Renly had Renly not secured The Stormlands first. Its not like the bannermen of the Storms End were saying "OMG RENLY SHOULD BE KING!" before he declared himself king, hell not even all of The Reach bannermen were too keen on Renly - The Florents obviously, but also houses like Fossoway, Varner and Mullendore chose to stick with Stannis even after the Tyrells defected. It seemed mostly like Mace and guys like Redwyne and Rowan who basically just suck his cock (and Randyll Tarly, who I think has an agenda of his own personally) were pushing hardest for Renly. Not all of The Reach and certainly not The Stormlands.