Why is Westeros so....crappy?

[Sansa_Stark]

I mean, they seem pretty backwards in terms of technology/culture/wealth compared to Essos in general.

When you compare it to Qarth or the Free Cities and even Valyria, the 7 Kingdoms just seems so bleak in comparison.

[E-Ro]

I don't understand.

[Éadaoin]

I don't understand.

:agree:

[redviper9]

And yet those "backwards" Westerosi were able to build the tallest structure in the known world (the Wall), some nigh-impregnable castles (the Eyrie, Storm's End, Riverrun when the sluice gate is opened and the moat is flooded), and a center for advanced learning (the Citadel). Oh, and while the pre-Targaryen Seven Kingdoms weren't some idyllic paradise, there were no continent-wide wars until the Dragon Nazis showed up and built that damn iron chair.

[otherbeef]

it's actually a fair point. Valyria certainly seemed more advanced than Westeros. But I always laugh when the Slaver in Astapor refers to the Westerosi as savages. Essos is definitely a less bloodthirsty place, more concerned with wealth and trading. Wouldn't say one is better than the other though.

[otherbeef]

Oh, and while the pre-Targaryen Seven Kingdoms weren't some idyllic paradise, there were no continent-wide wars until the Dragon Nazis showed up and built that damn iron chair.

what about the invasion of the first men? and the andal invasion?

[Pinkie Baelish]

it's actually a fair point. Valyria certainly seemed more advanced than Westeros. But I always laugh when the Slaver in Astapor refers to the Westerosi as savages. Essos is definitely a less bloodthirsty place, more concerned with wealth and trading. Wouldn't say one is better than the other though.

I've always considered Essos to be far more barbaric and brutal, what with the Dothraki roaming about, the numerous wars between cities, the slavery and the horrendous way Unsullied are made.

[otherbeef]

I've always considered Essos to be far more barbaric and brutal, what with the Dothraki roaming about, the numerous wars between cities, the slavery and the horrendous way Unsullied are made.

obviously it is not a peaceful place, but i feel like their wars aren't as big or encompassing as Westeros' wars. they are mostly battle between cities. Didn't Tyrion recall that Tywin said they didn't have the stomach for real war or something to that effect? that is what i meant. Slavers Bay and the Dothraki lands are obviously dangerous places.

[TalalOfDorne]

They may not be as liberal or as Essos but they are much more developed in most ways. As mentioned above the architecture. No slavery as well.

[Myrish Swamp Thing]

I think many of the symbols of so-called Essosi advancement are actually piggybacking on slave labor.

[Winter's Knight]

I think many of the symbols of so-called Essosi advancement are actually piggybacking on slave labor.

What about Bravoos?

[Dolorous Nedd]

And yet those "backwards" Westerosi were able to build the tallest structure in the known world (the Wall), some nigh-impregnable castles (the Eyrie, Storm's End, Riverrun when the sluice gate is opened and the moat is flooded), and a center for advanced learning (the Citadel). Oh, and while the pre-Targaryen Seven Kingdoms weren't some idyllic paradise, there were no continent-wide wars until the Dragon Nazis showed up and built that damn iron chair.

Some people need to learn their Targ history a little bit better. Jaehaerys the conciliator was able to end the feuding between the Brackens and Blackwoods who had been feuding for over 2000 years. His wife Queen Alysanne was one of the most beloved political figures in the history of Westeros and the Dragon Knight was considered the most noble knight who ever lived. I just don't get the carte blanche Targ hate some people have.

[Loon Lord]

Yea Westeros seems to have spent quite some time in the Feudal Ages while the Free cities seem more advanced with their individual governments and democracies

[lady m]

Yea Westeros seems to have spent quite some time in the Feudal Ages while the Free cities seem more advanced with their individual governments and democracies

Yeah, but historically the city-state came before the feudal system. I think each have their high point and low points.

[redviper9]

what about the invasion of the first men? and the andal invasion?

The arrival of the First Men ended in a truce between them and the Children of the Forest. The Andals never got north of the Neck. And neither of those created a central institution (the Iron Throne) which sparked numerous conflicts -- the Dance of the Dragons, the Blackfyre Rebellions, Robert's Rebellion, the War of the Five Kings -- in a relatively short period of time. And there were no nukes (dragons) razing Westeros prior to the Targaryens.

Some people need to learn their Targ history a little bit better. Jaehaerys the conciliator was able to end the feuding between the Brackens and Blackwoods who had been feuding for over 2000 years. His wife Queen Alysanne was one of the most beloved political figures in the history of Westeros and the Dragon Knight was considered the most noble knight who ever lived. I just don't get the carte blanche Targ hate some people have.

I am we'll aware of Jaehaerys I and Alysanne and their accomplishments, as well as those of Daeron II and Aegon V. I'm also aware that, despite Jaehaerys, the Blackwoods and the Brackens still hate each other (that hatred was one of the things fueling the Bittersteel-Bloodraven feud; Cat was legitimately shocked when Tytos and Jonos agreed with each other at the end of AGoT; and Tywin knew that he could easily get the Brackens to fight the Blackwoods). And it seems that for every Jaehaerys and Daeron, you had an Aegon the Unworthy or an Aerys the Mad.

While the Targaryens aren't my favorite family, there are Targaryens I like (Baelor Breakspear, Egg, Aemon). My big issue is with using dragons to legitimate your rule and with the Iron Throne, which is an institution founded by the Targaryens. While centralization of power has its benefits, I think it's caused more harm than good in Westeros.

[Dolorous Nedd]

The arrival of the First Men ended in a truce between them and the Children of the Forest. The Andals never got north of the Neck. And neither of those created a central institution (the Iron Throne) which sparked numerous conflicts -- the Dance of the Dragons, the Blackfyre Rebellions, Robert's Rebellion, the War of the Five Kings -- in a relatively short period of time. And there were no nukes (dragons) razing Westeros prior to the Targaryens.

I am we'll aware of Jaehaerys I and Alysanne and their accomplishments, as well as those of Daeron II and Aegon V. I'm also aware that, despite Jaehaerys, the Blackwoods and the Brackens still hate each other (that hatred was one of the things fueling the Bittersteel-Bloodraven feud; Cat was legitimately shocked when Tytos and Jonos agreed with each other at the end of AGoT; and Tywin knew that he could easily get the Brackens to fight the Blackwoods). And it seems that for every Jaehaerys and Daeron, you had an Aegon the Unworthy or an Aerys the Mad.

While the Targaryens aren't my favorite family, there are Targaryens I like (Baelor Breakspear, Egg, Aemon). My big issue is with using dragons to legitimate your rule and with the Iron Throne, which is an institution founded by the Targaryens. While centralization of power has its benefits, I think it's caused more harm than good in Westeros.

Fair enough, but obviously a centralized power base has worked very well for some great nations...take the US for example.

[danm_999]

And yet those "backwards" Westerosi were able to build the tallest structure in the known world (the Wall), some nigh-impregnable castles (the Eyrie, Storm's End, Riverrun when the sluice gate is opened and the moat is flooded), and a center for advanced learning (the Citadel). Oh, and while the pre-Targaryen Seven Kingdoms weren't some idyllic paradise, there were no continent-wide wars until the Dragon Nazis showed up and built that damn iron chair.

Plus, they don't keep slaves or geld people to make warriors and they have the only example of a full democracy anywhere in the world (the Night's Watch).

[callmedodge]

Some people need to learn their Targ history a little bit better. Jaehaerys the conciliator was able to end the feuding between the Brackens and Blackwoods who had been feuding for over 2000 years. His wife Queen Alysanne was one of the most beloved political figures in the history of Westeros and the Dragon Knight was considered the most noble knight who ever lived. I just don't get the carte blanche Targ hate some people have.

History is written by the victors. Obviously the Targs are going to look good on paper.

Also, the Free Cities aren`t true democracies. We only really know about the political system of Volantis and that`s just a bunch of rich nobles who vote between themselves on who should be in charge. It`s all just as backwards and unforgiving for those not in power as Westeros is.

[Myrish Swamp Thing]

What about Bravoos?

The exception. But it is reasonable to expect Braavos, a rich city-state, to be more advanced than Westeros.

[HelmHammerhand]

It's hard to say that Essos>Westeros or vice versa. While I know that drawing comparisons from history is not always appropriate its fair to say that Valyria is analogous with the Roman Empire, which was very advanced for its time. Afterwards, Western civilization takes a few steps back in the "Dark Ages" while the east becomes a far wealthier place with larger cities (Baghdad, Cairo, various Chinese dynastic capitals) and more advanced science - the way places in Essos are portrayed like Myr and the Qarth. In the end, GRRM does a great job, imho, of showing how both of the medieval systems - feudalism and outright slavery - resulted in great wealth for a select few and great cruelty for the masses.

- one small note for Westeros - we haven't had as much exploration as might be required to fairly judge the Westeros great cities - more time in places like Gulltown and especiallyOldtown might show us more of the refinement and achievements of Westerosii civilization