What if Jon was a good Lord Commander?

[Beric Zoolander]

The moment Jon Snow is given leadership he becomes quite the arrogant ruler. He selectively chooses who he wants to listen to and goes into what I would call an evil downward spiral. I don't know how anyone could have been surprised that he was taken out Caesar style (and I'm not talking about croutons).

Just look at the facts and judge for yourself...I put this together rather quickly maybe some others can add to this! :cool4:

1) Sent Maester Aemon away to his death under the guise of him possibly being burned by Melisandre. Who puts a 100+ year old man on a boat. Also note he quickly deteriorates once leaving the wall, it was like he was being preserved…sounds like another guy up north I know.

Note: Mel never does this. In Fact we later see that Melisandre fake killed to Mance. She probably has no intention to burn any kings. It's all about Glamors.

2) Jon sends off Gilly and Sam and a baby to the same fate as Aemon. On the open rough seas, risking their lives to get them to Oldtown (I'm pretty sure they could have gone by land). In doing so, Jon also steals Gilly's son and forces her to take Mance's again for fear of what Melisandre may or may not do. Even for all her talk she's never done anything to an innocent.

3) Jon beheads Janis Slynt. Slynt was one of the more vocal people in dissenting opinion of Jon, and instead of taking it into consideration he decides that he is simply undermining him and silences him with one swift swipe of his sword. Janos may have been a bad man at one time but all your past crimes are forgiven when you join the watch!

4) Jon decides to break his oath (for the second time mind you). It's noted his own father describes oath breakers:

"No man is more dangerous. The deserter knows his life is forfeit if he is taken, so he will not flinch from any crime, no matter how vile." (aGOT Bran I)

He tries to take part in the wars of the Seven Kingdoms. It was already a grey area helping Stannis out, but at least that was in the end for the sake of the realm. He was selfishly trying to go and stop the Boltons because of his "sister". Heck I wouldn't be surprised if he wrote that letter himself. And that was the last straw and the justice of the Nights Watch was served, he was offed before he could take everyone down with him.

So to rehash, oath-breaker, killer, baby stealer. Jon Snow.

I'd be terribly scared if he was brought back or saved, who knows what else he is capable of, especially if he comes to fully understand his skin-changing abilities.

[Warrior Queen]

So to rehash, oath-breaker, killer, baby stealer. Jon Snow.

Seriously?

I think Jon is a good leader actually.

Jon never wanted to be the Lord Commander and was not quite prepared to rule.

Robb was groomed for rule, Jon wasn't. Sure he made some mistakes, but he is still a young man.

and besides, i consider him a way better ruler than many many others.

[therealbando]

I`m not sure if you`re joking or if you`re serious. Either way it makes me laugh

[-Ghost-]

Are you serious?

[Groat]

The moment Jon Snow is given leadership he becomes quite the arrogant ruler. He selectively chooses who he wants to listen to and goes into what I would call an evil downward spiral. I don't know how anyone could have been surprised that he was taken out Caesar style (and I'm not talking about croutons).

Just look at the facts and judge for yourself...I put this together rather quickly maybe some others can add to this! :cool4:

1) Sent Maester Aemon away to his death under the guise of him possibly being burned by Melisandre. Who puts a 100+ year old man on a boat. Also note he quickly deteriorates once leaving the wall, it was like he was being preserved…sounds like another guy up north I know.

Note: Mel never does this. In Fact we later see that Melisandre fake killed to Mance. She probably has no intention to burn any kings. It's all about Glamors.

Mel has every intention of burning kings, or sons of kings. She would have burnt Edric given the chance. Jon was literally following the advice Aemon gave him, "kill the boy". There are no easy choices when you are in charge, Jon did the best he could to save those he could while preserving the NW, and in this case I agree with him. Jon did not think he was sending Aemon off to die, as shown in his POV in DWD, he often thinks about Sam and Aemon and imagines them basking in the warm whether in Oldtown.

2) Jon sends off Gilly and Sam and a baby to the same fate as Aemon. On the open rough seas, risking their lives to get them to Oldtown (I'm pretty sure they could have gone by land). In doing so, Jon also steals Gilly's son and forces her to take Mance's again for fear of what Melisandre may or may not do. Even for all her talk she's never done anything to an innocent.

Again same as above, Jon is doing the best he can to save lives from the real threat that is Mel burning kings blood.

3) Jon beheads Janis Slynt. Slynt was one of the more vocal people in dissenting opinion of Jon, and instead of taking it into consideration he decides that he is simply undermining him and silences him with one swift swipe of his sword. Janos may have been a bad man at one time but all your past crimes are forgiven when you join the watch!

Maybe you just don't understand the politics of medieval military institutions. Jon gave Janos every possible chance to reform and toe the line. Instead Janos made it clear he was trying to undermine Jon, and thought he could refuse a direct order and not be punished. Was Jon's reaction of execution too harsh? that could be debated, but in this instance, personally, I agree with Jon again.

4) Jon decides to break his oath (for the second time mind you). It's noted his own father describes oath breakers:

He tries to take part in the wars of the Seven Kingdoms. It was already a grey area helping Stannis out, but at least that was in the end for the sake of the realm. He was selfishly trying to go and stop the Boltons because of his "sister". Heck I wouldn't be surprised if he wrote that letter himself. And that was the last straw and the justice of the Nights Watch was served, he was offed before he could take everyone down with him.

Read the Butterpumps post.... I don't have the link, but he eloquently explains how Jon was actually attempting to hold true to the spirit and meaning of his NW oaths by guarding the realms of men. I agree with it.

[Grip]

He can be criticized for the expedition to Hardhome, though the other alternatives werent much better imo. But also, possibly, for seperating himself to much from the men of the NW (IE the rank and file). Hovewer I cant really fault him much for these possible mistakes, they were in many ways understandable. So no, I cant say that he has been a bad LC so far.

[King of Winters]

All reasonable points but Jon was doing what he thought best. Who knew that Mels wasn't going to burn Aemon or Mance's baby. He'd just become LC of the NW, and was trying to keep the peace between the Wildlings and NW.

For Janos Slynt of Jon ignored him and went away he would have been seen as weak, and I'm sure that if Slynt hadn't been killed he would have probably caused more trouble for Jon like making the men disagree with some of Jon's orders.

Jon was given permission by Qhorin Halfhand. Somebody higher up in the NW than him, and Qhorin said to do whatever Jon needed to do to infiltrate the Wildlings and find out their plans. And anyway Jon went back to Castle Black instead of staying with the Wildlings and being free.

Oh and what else could Jon do with Maester Aemon? The only safe place for Aemon was The Citadial where he would have plenty of care and medicine. It was unfortunate that he died in Bravvos or on a ship, can't remember, but it would have been better than a death by fire.

[Beric Zoolander]

Are you serious?

Mind blown, I know.

Its hard to argue with the facts, literally everything Jon touched died. Only one to escape unharmed was Ghost really.

I didn't even bring up letting ALL the Wildlings to the other side of the wall, which has ZERO defenses. I know that was in his best intentions and he was hoping they'd unify against a greater evil, but he had to have known how everyone else would see that. It was like he was trying to fit a square peg through the gate.

Of all the things he did this at least only caused some minor deaths and discomfort.

[K26dp]

Wow... one of the most bizarre readings of the text yet.

[willi-E-Lannister]

This is silly. Jon was forced to do this and he did everything that joer would have done. The NW is now 100x better off (if braavos brings food)

[Tony Soprano]

This is obvious trolling.

So to rehash, oath-breaker, killer, baby stealer. Jon Snow.

Oath-breaker? Did you forget that Qhorin, his superior officer, was the one who commanded him to infiltrate the Wildlings? Janos Slynt and the idiots like him don't know that, or rather, choose not to believe it. You, on the other hand, know the truth. Oathbreaking would be not following the Halfhand's orders. Condemning him and calling him an oath-breaker for following orders is just...dumb.

Janos Slynt wasn't executed for his past crimes. Jon looked past what he did to Ned. He was executed because he didn't obey Jon's orders. Anyone who was Lord Commander would have done the same.

Baby-stealer? Are you serious? I'm not even going to respond to that.

[Grand Moff Mithrandir]

What do you mean what if? He was a good LC, a kingly LC. Especially if you consider the fact that he was just a teenager who was thrust into a position he did not ask for.

[Beric Zoolander]

Read the Butterpumps post.... I don't have the link, but he eloquently explains how Jon was actually attempting to hold true to the spirit and meaning of his NW oaths by guarding the realms of men. I agree with it.

In Jon's last chapter doesn't he mention that he is knowingly breaking his NW oath and that the way he phrases to to everyone is so that he is not commanding them to break their oaths too they willingly follow him and break their NW oaths on their own accord? I haven't read it in a few weeks, I might go back and look at this.

[Yvonne Veronique]

Not sure if trolling... Jon did the best that he could. He never wanted to be LC and had to make decisions on the spot. He's doing a fine job for being a teenager with so much weight on his shoulders.

[Fetch me a block]

The moment Jon Snow is given leadership he becomes quite the arrogant ruler. He selectively chooses who he wants to listen to and goes into what I would call an evil downward spiral. I don't know how anyone could have been surprised that he was taken out Caesar style (and I'm not talking about croutons).

Just look at the facts and judge for yourself...I put this together rather quickly maybe some others can add to this! :cool4:

1) Sent Maester Aemon away to his death under the guise of him possibly being burned by Melisandre. Who puts a 100+ year old man on a boat. Also note he quickly deteriorates once leaving the wall, it was like he was being preserved…sounds like another guy up north I know.

Note: Mel never does this. In Fact we later see that Melisandre fake killed to Mance. She probably has no intention to burn any kings. It's all about Glamors.

2) Jon sends off Gilly and Sam and a baby to the same fate as Aemon. On the open rough seas, risking their lives to get them to Oldtown (I'm pretty sure they could have gone by land). In doing so, Jon also steals Gilly's son and forces her to take Mance's again for fear of what Melisandre may or may not do. Even for all her talk she's never done anything to an innocent.

3) Jon beheads Janis Slynt. Slynt was one of the more vocal people in dissenting opinion of Jon, and instead of taking it into consideration he decides that he is simply undermining him and silences him with one swift swipe of his sword. Janos may have been a bad man at one time but all your past crimes are forgiven when you join the watch!

4) Jon decides to break his oath (for the second time mind you). It's noted his own father describes oath breakers:

He tries to take part in the wars of the Seven Kingdoms. It was already a grey area helping Stannis out, but at least that was in the end for the sake of the realm. He was selfishly trying to go and stop the Boltons because of his "sister". Heck I wouldn't be surprised if he wrote that letter himself. And that was the last straw and the justice of the Nights Watch was served, he was offed before he could take everyone down with him.

So to rehash, oath-breaker, killer, baby stealer. Jon Snow.

I'd be terribly scared if he was brought back or saved, who knows what else he is capable of, especially if he comes to fully understand his skin-changing abilities.

Emboldened/Italicized. I burst out laughing

[brAnthelAstgreenseer]

Baby Stealer? Really.I am no moderator but this thread has apotential to lock down pretty early.

[Lion of Judah]

1) What does Mel using glamours to save Mance have to do with Maester Aemon? The two situations do not relate in the least and do you really think Aemon was going to survive another winter at the wall?

2) Jon never steals Gillys baby if you don't remember correctly, it was something that Jon discussed with her. This was the reason she was crying when Sam saw her leaving Jon's quarters.

3) You're seriously defending Janos Slynt? He gave Janos too many chances to follow orders and Janos is one of the guys responsible for what happened the Ned.

4) This coming from the person who just defended the likes of Janos Slynt.

Your arguments are not very compelling to say the least and labeling your distorted interpretation of the text is not fact. No matter how outrageous some might find your opinion it's your opinion, but you venture into the flat out dishonest when you pass it off as facts.

[Lady Seaworth]

Interesting to view Jon from a different perspective! Comments on each point:

1. Jon didn't know that Mel wasn't intending to burn Maester Aemon, iirc. Even though we know now that Mel uses glamours, I still wouldn't bet on her not burning anyone.

2. I dislike what Jon did about the baby swapping situation (I don't very much like the implication that Mance's baby is more important than Gilly's). I think Jon did what he thought was best, but I agree that he's on dodgy moral footing.

3. I don't think Jon beheaded Janos for past crimes. I think the problem was that with the threat of the Others, the Watch very much needed to stand united, and Janos was threatening that unity and Jon's position as Lord Commander. (To clarify, I'm not attempting to justify Jon's action here, just trying to reason out his rationale.)

Jon also needed a way to guarantee loyalty and prove himself as more than a weak teenager. But executing someone just for this reason leaves me with an uneasy feeling - I'm eerily reminded of Theon trying to prove himself during his stint as Prince of Winterfell.

4. The Night's Watch guards the realms of men, I'd say that includes "Arya" in some way. And while it's maybe unwise, I understand why Jon takes this path. It's hard to really break the family link.

[Gurkhal]

While TS is correct that Jon Snow is an oathbreaker and a fairly poor LC I do think that he's going about it the wrong way.

[therealbando]

The moment Jon Snow is given leadership he becomes quite the arrogant ruler. He selectively chooses who he wants to listen to and goes into what I would call an evil downward spiral. I don't know how anyone could have been surprised that he was taken out Caesar style (and I'm not talking about croutons).

Just look at the facts and judge for yourself...I put this together rather quickly maybe some others can add to this! :cool4:

1) Sent Maester Aemon away to his death under the guise of him possibly being burned by Melisandre. Who puts a 100+ year old man on a boat. Also note he quickly deteriorates once leaving the wall, it was like he was being preserved…sounds like another guy up north I know.

Note: Mel never does this. In Fact we later see that Melisandre fake killed to Mance. She probably has no intention to burn any kings. It's all about Glamors.

2) Jon sends off Gilly and Sam and a baby to the same fate as Aemon. On the open rough seas, risking their lives to get them to Oldtown (I'm pretty sure they could have gone by land). In doing so, Jon also steals Gilly's son and forces her to take Mance's again for fear of what Melisandre may or may not do. Even for all her talk she's never done anything to an innocent.

3) Jon beheads Janis Slynt. Slynt was one of the more vocal people in dissenting opinion of Jon, and instead of taking it into consideration he decides that he is simply undermining him and silences him with one swift swipe of his sword. Janos may have been a bad man at one time but all your past crimes are forgiven when you join the watch!

4) Jon decides to break his oath (for the second time mind you). It's noted his own father describes oath breakers:

He tries to take part in the wars of the Seven Kingdoms. It was already a grey area helping Stannis out, but at least that was in the end for the sake of the realm. He was selfishly trying to go and stop the Boltons because of his "sister". Heck I wouldn't be surprised if he wrote that letter himself. And that was the last straw and the justice of the Nights Watch was served, he was offed before he could take everyone down with him.

So to rehash, oath-breaker, killer, baby stealer. Jon Snow.

I'd be terribly scared if he was brought back or saved, who knows what else he is capable of, especially if he comes to fully understand his skin-changing abilities.

I`ve only just noticed that. Genius :rofl: :rofl: