Why the southron ambitions?

[Thendel]

Why the southron ambitions? Because it means power: An alliance that binds the North, Stormlands, Vale and Riverlands together would indeed become a military and political force to be reckoned with, and by his attempts to marry Jaime (and then Tyrion) to Lysa, it's pretty clear Tywin wanted in on the alliance as well.

In a feudal society, a king is only as strong as his vassal lords are divided. When the lords unite in a power block around the throne, however, the king suddenly can't get away with as much as he could before; he needs to appease the power block, or risk their ire. Aerys failed to consider that, and paid for it with his life and that of his son, his grandchildren, and the collapse of his house.

[Turkey Jack]

Agree with what Thendel said

+They are called the great houses for a reason. Walder Frey spends his whole life trying to climb the social ladder, if you are the Lord of the North who is good enough for you to marry?

[areacode201]

Interesting thoughts. Something else to keep in mind... we know NOTHING about Ned's mother and that whole side of the family tree.

[MercyTheBlindUglyLittleCat]

I certainly don't have it all figured out, but:

The alliance Rickard put together ultimately did overthrow the Targs - the Lords Paramount of the North, the Vale, the Stormlands and the Riverlands were all aligned via a network of marriages and that group was the core of Robert's Rebellion. We also know that Aerys was wanred by Varys that Rhaegar was at the Tourney of Harrenhal plotting with several lords to depose him; Robert Baratheon, Brandon & Eddard Stark and Jon Arryn are all confirmed attendees at the tournament.

Rickard was part of a plot to depose Aerys. Varys opposed it, presumably because Aerys' continued reign was in accordance with his ultimate plan to restore the Blackfyres and he would have less influence in a Rhaegar controlled court. As to the Maester's involvement, I think they pull their support when Rhaegar runs off with Lyanna, because - like Rhaegar - they know that the child of that union is TPTWP who will bring about (amongst other things) the restoration of magic which they are trying to prevent. Why they were pushing for it in the first place, and what specifically House Stark was going to get out of this plan I'm less confident about.

Makes good sense to me

[Lord Damian]

Aerys was mad, the dragons had been dead for over 100 years. After Aerys and his family, the Baratheon's were the next in line and after them I speculate the Starks. Remember, Aegon V when he was "egg" travelled to the North and he undoubtably made "connections" with the Stark family. Also, Ned, telling Cersei in the Godswood the reason he did not "claim the throne for himself" was because "Robert had the better claim". This passage tells us the readers that Ned had a "claim", meaning Royal/Targaryen blood. On the Targ family tree, Aegon V's children is listed after Robert's great - grandmother "targ" there are "others" meaning Aegon V had more children, one of which may/might/must have been a princess that became "lady Stark". Richard was positioning his "heirs" to possibly take on a greater role in the affairs of Westeros instead of just the North. Varys might not have been "whispering lies", they may have been "thruths".

[WinterKing]

Do not forget that Hoster Tully tried to marry his brother to Redwyne(fleet!) and Edmure to Arianne, and Elia and Oberyn were intended to marry Lannister.The only question being why the only house(except Targ,for obvious reasons) left out was Tyrell.

[Im no Ser]

Do not forget that Hoster Tully tried to marry his brother to Redwyne(fleet!) and Edmure to Arianne, and Elia and Oberyn were intended to marry Lannister.The only question being why the only house(except Targ,for obvious reasons) left out was Tyrell.

Why the southron ambitions? Because it means power: An alliance that binds the North, Stormlands, Vale and Riverlands together would indeed become a military and political force to be reckoned with, and by his attempts to marry Jaime (and then Tyrion) to Lysa, it's pretty clear Tywin wanted in on the alliance as well.

In a feudal society, a king is only as strong as his vassal lords are divided. When the lords unite in a power block around the throne, however, the king suddenly can't get away with as much as he could before...

And I think this is basically it. Add a reasonable crown prince willing to depose his father and make compromises and you've got the stage set for a fundamental change in the political structure.

Crackpotting for a bit:

Let's say Lady Dustin is right and Rickard's maester is the one pushing this, and that Marwyn is right when he says there is an anti-magic conspiracy (and I admit these are both 'ifs'). Then I read this:

i've always wondered whether or not there isn't a master plan brewing between the maesters to further some cause no one is aware of similar to the bene gesserit doing genetic planning in dune.

It's the Targs who we know are engaged in a genetic planning campaign, to produce TPTWP.

The maesters are pulling a reverse Bene Geserit. They are looking to eliminate the bloodlines that produce TPTWP, who they believe is linked to the power of magic in the world.

[anon76returns]

Do not forget that Hoster Tully tried to marry his brother to Redwyne(fleet!) and Edmure to Arianne, and Elia and Oberyn were intended to marry Lannister.The only question being why the only house(except Targ,for obvious reasons) left out was Tyrell.

Nobody liked Mace. He was basically the

of the Great Houses.

[anon76returns]

Aerys was mad, the dragons had been dead for over 100 years. After Aerys and his family, the Baratheon's were the next in line and after them I speculate the Starks. Remember, Aegon V when he was "egg" travelled to the North and he undoubtably made "connections" with the Stark family.

Well, he might have, or might have not. Since either option is speculative, "undoubtably" is hardly the word to use.

Also, Ned, telling Cersei in the Godswood the reason he did not "claim the throne for himself" was because "Robert had the better claim". This passage tells us the readers that Ned had a "claim", meaning Royal/Targaryen blood.

No, it means Ned wasn't going to take the throne before Robert. Maybe he was referring to Robert's Targaryen blood vs. his own Northern blood. Maybe he was referring to Robert's skill with a warhammer vs. his own skill with Ice. In any case, the context clearly shows that Ned is clearly dismissive towards Cersei's comment that he should have taken the Iron Throne for his own.

[Minstral]

Considering the family tree is hazy around Jaehaerys I reign (we don't know any of his children(s) name(s)), it is possible there could have been a link then. It has been suggested on the forums that when Jaehaerys and Alysanne visited the North with 5/6? dragons and the entire court that it could have been for a wedding.

From Bran's weirwood visions, isn't the pregnant lady who wants her son to avenge her theorised to be Rickard's mother (between Lyanna & Benjen vision and the Dunk vision)? Rickard was an only child so maybe Edwyle was killed before Rickard was born. I can't recall the link with the south if anyone else can recall...?

A trip to the North with a major military weapon (dragons), and during that visit they shrunk the Stark domain and gave it to the Watch and abolished some traditions that were powerful in the region. I don't think they went to Winterfell to honor the Starks, but to "set them to rights".

[The Snowman]

A trip to the North with a major military weapon (dragons), and during that visit they shrunk the Stark domain and gave it to the Watch and abolished some traditions that were powerful in the region. I don't think they went to Winterfell to honor the Starks, but to "set them to rights".

They gave 25 leagues to the Watch out of a region close in size to Brazil. When Roose Bolton was chatting with Theon about the first night tradition, he says the northmen and particularly umbers didn't care for it. The visit occurred after Balerion had died (aegon's Dragon is the last reminder of the original conquest and the targs know dragons don't do well in winter or storms. It was a prevention move, to stop any thought of northern independence. That's how I read it anyway

[otherbeef]

why not have alliances with southern lords? isolationism doesn't seem like the wisest choice in the long run

[Minstral]

They gave 25 leagues to the Watch out of a region close in size to Brazil. When Roose Bolton was chatting with Theon about the first night tradition, he says the northmen and particularly umbers didn't care for it. The visit occurred after Balerion had died (aegon's Dragon is the last reminder of the original conquest and the targs know dragons don't do well in winter or storms. It was a prevention move, to stop any thought of northern independence. That's how I read it anyway

You might want to read it again then. Bolton says that old traditions linger where the Old Gods hold sway, and explicitly states that he and the Umbers practice the tradition but keep the act silent. Furthermore, he gave the NW the New Gift, land which you correctly state as 25 leagues, at the expense of the domain of the Starks. The dragon kings literally shrunk the total size of the North, if the Targaryens did this with the blessing of the Starks in not known but I have my doubts.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

He did, but that's hardly worthy of conspiracy theories.

True. But when for thousands of years the Starks were married within the North and suddenly only Rickard marry his heir and his only daughter to southrons its weird.

[The Dragon King]

According to Lady Ryswell, Rickard Stark's maester Walys(Flowers) whispered such things in Lord Stark's ear. According to wiki Maester Walys promoted them? Who(or which) to believe? And even more importantly, why did he have southron ambitions in the first place? Arranging a marriage between his first son and a Tully girl, sending his second son to be fostered by Jon Arryn(a childless high lord, I should add), and arranging a marriage between Lyanna and Robert? This should form a very big alliance(and it did). But why? Did he see a war coming? Or maesters planned(or saw) a war coming so they intervened? I'm stuck guys and expecting help.

Assuming House Stark already has a firm grasp on the North, what do they gain out of marrying their children to other Northerners? OTOH, if you marry them off to other great Houses in the South you gain alliances with them and increase your power a great deal. The purpose of the game is to maximize your power, marrying with great Houses in the South does that far better than with the Northern Houses that you already have.

[conon394]

Assuming House Stark already has a firm grasp on the North, what do they gain out of marrying their children to other Northerners? OTOH, if you marry them off to other great Houses in the South you gain alliances with them and increase your power a great deal. The purpose of the game is to maximize your power, marrying with great Houses in the South does that far better than with the Northern Houses that you already have.

But that assumes you are playing... Its clear Ned was not, nor even the the Tullys. Sometime you can be content just with a comfortable and fair situation. Marrying in the South was likely to be disruptive with the religious issues. So far being sucked into Southern politics as not exactly been for House Stark. Think about Ned's Grandmother is A flint from the clans, there is no Sept in winterfell before Ned has one built it Rickons policy looks like kind of a bolt out of the blue.

[The Snowman]

You might want to read it again then. Bolton says that old traditions linger where the Old Gods hold sway, and explicitly states that he and the Umbers practice the tradition but keep the act silent. Furthermore, he gave the NW the New Gift, land which you correctly state as 25 leagues, at the expense of the domain of the Starks. The dragon kings literally shrunk the total size of the North, if the Targaryens did this with the blessing of the Starks in not known but I have my doubts.

That's what thought I said, in that they didn't care for the targs new laws. The Starks we're tightly linked to the watch so I wouldn't toss it out of the equation. Just think about the fact that the strength of the watch went from 10 000 men during aegon's conquest and was below a thousand 300 years later. You can imagine the northerners would be worried about the decline of the watch 150 years after the conquest. It was obviously a gradual process not in the last generation. We have Ned and Benjen wanting to repopulate the gift to help strengthen the watch.

[The Dragon King]

But that assumes you are playing... Its clear Ned was not, nor even the the Tullys. Sometime you can be content just with a comfortable and fair situation. Marrying in the South was likely to be disruptive with the religious issues. So far being sucked into Southern politics as not exactly been for House Stark. Think about Ned's Grandmother is A flint from the clans, there is no Sept in winterfell before Ned has one built it Rickons policy looks like kind of a bolt out of the blue.

The Tullys were playing, Ned wasn't. I'm thinking Rickard Stark was playing a higher level game then previous Stark Lords, who just wanted to stick their head in the snow and forget about everyone else.

[lcd52]

Does anyone really think that it's going to be easy to convince the realm that the war for life itself is beginning and they need to unite and fight the Dark Other? Personnaly make sacrifices? They've been using the Wall as a human refuse heap for years.

Tywin was perfectly ready to let the Northerners fight the Wildlings for a few years and then make an alliance with the Wildlings. No one believes in magic, or snarks or grumpkins any more. Ned and Benjen and Mormont are all reported to have felt time running out (I'm generalizing, here). If Rickard believed "the end was near", that the Battle for the Dawn was coming, he may have been doing what Ser Barrastan says Aegon V Did NOT do: use marriage to build firm friends and alliances. Unfortunately, It all just went horribly wrong.

[Night's Watchmen]

Well forming alliances to gain power is a good thought. But why would they feel the need of that all of a sudden? I want to point maesters again, maybe they wanted to strip Aerys from power? We know Rhaegar was planning something(I don't mean the Tourney of Harrenhall, I mean his talk with Jaime when he was preparing to ride to Trident). And yes we honestly don't know Starks were playing the game or not. And could you please explain how we know Tullys were playing The Dragon King?

Does anyone really think that it's going to be easy to convince the realm that the war for life itself is beginning and they need to unite and fight the Dark Other? Personnaly make sacrifices? They've been using the Wall as a human refuse heap for years.

Tywin was perfectly ready to let the Northerners fight the Wildlings for a few years and then make an alliance with the Wildlings. No one believes in magic, or snarks or grumpkins any more. Ned and Benjen and Mormont are all reported to have felt time running out (I'm generalizing, here). If Rickard believed "the end was near", that the Battle for the Dawn was coming, he may have been doing what Ser Barrastan says Aegon V Did NOT do: use marriage to build firm friends and alliances. Unfortunately, It all just went horribly wrong.

This is very interesting but do we have any evidence about that? Ned(and Benjen's) plan to populate the Gift was against Wildling I thought,am I wrong?