A Dance of Religions - Probably Spoilers of TWOW

[Manderlay]

Kind of stole this title i Think.

Regardless, I think that a growing element of the fture battle fronts will have to do with religion.

For arguments sake lets say that the big three fronts are:

1.) Aegon and his company

2.) Stannis and his company

3.) Daenerys and her company

1.) Now Aegon has landed in the Stormlands.We now know that he has already taken Storm's End via trickery. Soon the lords of the Stormlands will flock to him and quite honestly it doesnt matter if the Tyrells march on him or not. The Tyrells have issues with the Margarey at King's Landing, they are about to get really attacked by Euron Greyjoy and the Ironborn and the Dornish are waiting for a fight. With the Hightowers and Tarlys potentially turncloaking, with the Greyjoys maybe attacking High Garden, with Aegon having conquered Storm's End, where will the Tyrells run to? Kings Landing is the only 'real' safe place for their family. The point I am making is that the Tyrells are not that mighty at the moment and many believe that their power is mainly an illusion or at least not as formidable as they would like you to believe. If Dorne comes over to Aegon's side, then that means that the Golden Company(with elephants btw) along with the Stormlords and Dorne will crush the Reach and Tyrells woth the help of Euron Greyjoy of all people. Aegon will inevitably conquer Kings Landing from the Lannister/Tyrell remnants. The High Septon...is a politician who is extremely ambitious. In a way they are the ones in control of the city at the moment. How awesome it will look(with the help of Varys) of the return of the Dragon to save the city from the corrupt Lannisters. The city via the manipulation of the High Septon and Varys will basically become the sponsors of Aegon and history reign wil be united underneath the religion of the 'Seven'. Now obviously it may not happe like this, but as long as you get the gist that Aegon is going to be a champion of the Seeven. By the way, it further proves the point that he is not a Targ IMO. He he were really a Targ destined to take the throne before the Long Night, Rhillor would have found him a long time ago.

2.) I am a big believer that Stannis is turning to the 'dark side' and by darkside I mean, the Old Gods. You can basically interchange Stannis with Jon or Bran. Point is that thei is a Battle of Ice and probably the Siege of Winterfell to reclaim it in the name of the Starks. This will mark for the Starks/Stannis as Kings Landing will do for Aegon. They will unite the Old Gods faith beneath them. Obviously the Northerners do not need to convert, but Stannis Baratheon may in fact choose to hoist the Old Gods as his Gods and make that the official religion of 'his' kingdoms.

Right now he is planning on beheading Theon Greyjoy before the Heart Tree. Regardless if this will: wake Jon Snow, wake the trees, wake the ghost of winterfell, make Bran appear before them, whatever, it will have profound impact on Stannis(If he lives). The Northerners probably look at Stannis as a means to an end, because as of right now no one truly expects the Northerners to bend the knee to Stannis once a Stark is returned to Winterfell...however, if Stannis declares for the Old Gods and wins them back Winterfell that is an entirely different story. Even if they want a Stark as King in the North, they may declare for Stannis as the Protector of the Realm. He actually is trying to fight the White Walkers. BTW, if Stannis dies you can easily replace him with Rickon, Jon Snow or Bran as the 'champion of the Old Gods'.

3.) Rhillor is headed straight for Dany. Moqorro is helping Vicky fight through the Yunkai in order to save Mereen from Dany, I mean the onsluaght. He will win along with help from Tyrion, Selmy, etc. When Moqorro meets Dany and starts howling about how she is the savior of the world, etc, what do you think Dany will say? I dont believe you? Especially since Moqorro basically brought her a navy. Im sure Jorah and Selmy will be as skeptical as possible, but Dany will follow Moqorro because he is too convincing and his magic is real. Moqorro will be to her what the High Septon is to Aegon and what BloodRaven/Bran will be to Stannis/Jon. Mereen will also be for her, what Kings Landing will be for Aegon and what Winterfell will be for Jon/Stannis/Rickon, a place where she will bind herself to the Lord of Light. The opportunity is too great for this not to happen. Moqorro has already convince Victarion, who is a stone cold Ironborn, to adopt to the Lord of Light.

So what do I see in the future? Aegon the champion of the Seven, Dany the champion of the Lord of Light, Jon Snow/Stannis the champion of the Old Gods(Maybe Euron as a champion o the Drowned God) all fighting each other.

Many do not believe this, but when Dany lands in Westeros and she ultimately meets Aegon...its not going to be a friendly thing for long. The Seven or Rhillor will exist, but not both. That is not where this story is headed, and considering that Dany has three Dragons and destiny on her side, I would bet my money on her. Many do not believe that the Lord of Light can actually grow so epically in Westeros, considering the Faith of the Seven is so entrenched in their society. My answer to that is, look at the people of Dragonstone after Melisandre arrived. The Long Night is coming, do you think peasants will follow Gods who technically dont do anything, or one that promises to light a fire? Will everyone in the South convert? Of course not, but you burn enough people and the complaints start to get real quiet. Im not saying Dany will burn people(anymore that is), but if a Targaryan rides a Black Dragon over to your house and says "you may only worship R'hillor" 9/10 people will say sure. Even many of the mighy Wildlings converted to the lord of light when life and death were involved.

The Champions of Rhillor and the Champions of the Old Gods will meet at the Trident.

1) I will agree that many people will flock to Aegon, the hightowers have always been Targaryen loyalists but Tarly? that's pure speculation, moreover when sam comes to old town he hears that lord hightower is not in his right mind or his wife whispering in his ears all the time. Randall Tarly is the most capable soldier in the reach, the best battle commander but Horn Hill lands are not as big as the other houses in the reach, he is a hard man and a soldier to his bone, loyalty to his liege lord means something to him, and it does matter if the tyrells march on him or not, the outcome of that battle will be important, (theres a Tyrell army heading towards SE) Mace Tyrell "Lord Pufffish" is the most likely person to join Aegon if Maragerys trial is not in their favour, although that can be debated as he is hungry for power and his daughter is queen. As for Tarly he wont be the first to turn his cloak, he will only change sides if Matthis Rowan and Redwynes change sides to Aegon.

2) Stannis turning to the old gods! Stannis will follow the lord of light until he learns that he is not AA, and Stannis was never a man who put much faith in the god(s), he chose Rhollor cause melisandre is powerful and he knows she can help him win the iron throne, he was never a beliver of the seven as well since the day the ship carrying his father and mother crashed in the shipbreaker bay I think at SE, Stannis doesn't belive in god(s) but will make use of them, as for theon, Stannis is doing that to please the northmen, Jon had warned that the old gods are strong in the north and not to offend them, everyone still belives theon killed bran and rickon, the northmen want his head in front of a heart tree and stannis agrees cause that will keep the northmen happy and loyal and perhaps more will join him.

3) Well if victarion blows the horn as we know he will from GRRM's reading of victarion chapter, this wont make the mother of dragons happy even if victarion fought on her side while she was away in the dothraki sea, and I am not so sure about slemy being sceptical about the whole prophecy thing, it was he who told dany once about Rhaegar reading the song of ice and fire and deciding he should become a warrior, barristan tells dany that her fathers secrets are hers but I am not sure the same would apply to Rhaegar, As for the Red Priest dany may listen to him but may not adopt the faith of Rhollor as she is weary of magic and stuff, a lesson she learnt from MM, will she destroy the faith of the seven kingdoms to adopt a new one, she doesn't seem the type.

[DrunkSister]

Mirijam, I do not underestimate High Sparrow. I just think he's trying to get rid of the corruption in both Faith and Kings Landing(maybe he'll try harder if his reach is longer though I'm not sure), and his efforts may seem extreme but his accusations of Cersei was correct after all. I know his accusations of Margaery was wrong and evidences were weak but he did let Lord Tarly take custody of her. He's traveled all over Seven Kingdoms on foot. He's a humble man, not a man of material world. He sold everything valuable in Faith's possession to feed people(including his crown), reminded other high positioned men in Faith that they must be humble(Cersei's surprised to see some old priests working but he said it's a kind of a worshipping, most pleasing to the Smith), and he accuses Cersei killing Lord Stark in Baelor's Sept(which he indicates, that was a wrong place to hold an execution). Previous High Septons(I mean the previous two) was just toys of politicians. He's definitely not. He may have taken his position by power but can you blame him? Wherever you look at Faith you see corruption, am I right? And by the way, I would hate to see some "politicians" of the faith playing the game(because I really really don't like the Seven, and I don't believe they have any powers at all and are just some made-up Andal shit).

I think we are fundamentally in agreement.

Two previous high septons were very much players of the Game of Thrones seeking position and wealth, this one fears nothing and hopes for nothing for himself and that is what makes him so dangerous - his objectives cannot be predicted withing the rules of the Game, and he can be neither bought or intimidated into being an obedient piece. I cannot like him, but I admire all his good traits.

I am sure Andal religion is made up, but I hesitate to say that it has no power: Catelyn had a vision praying in a sept, Davos while stranded after BoB, Sansa prayed that Hound's rage be stilled and it was, this could be just the individuals in question displaying supernatural powers, or maybe in Martin-verse the belief itself has power, but minimal as the display is, it still exists.

Doesn't beat shadow-babies or warging but it's still there.

[aryagonnakill]

I think we are fundamentally in agreement.

Two previous high septons were very much players of the Game of Thrones seeking position and wealth, this one fears nothing and hopes for nothing for himself and that is what makes him so dangerous - his objectives cannot be predicted withing the rules of the Game, and he can be neither bought or intimidated into being an obedient piece. I cannot like him, but I admire all his good traits.

I am sure Andal religion is made up, but I hesitate to say that it has no power: Catelyn had a vision praying in a sept, Davos while stranded after BoB, Sansa prayed that Hound's rage be stilled and it was, this could be just the individuals in question displaying supernatural powers, or maybe in Martin-verse the belief itself has power, but minimal as the display is, it still exists.

Doesn't beat shadow-babies or warging but it's still there.

Reminds me of a Futurama episode- "If you do things right, people wont realize you've done anything at all."

[Ser Mouth of the South]

I'm a new to the forum thing but on the subject of the Reach I think you are way off. Cersei's scheming pretty much ruined the Tyrell/Lanister alliance in my opinion. Its Tarlley who flies to Kl and takes Margery into custody. I don't think the Reach would turn on Highgardern and even if it did that battle would not be the epic mace slaughter everyone makes it out to be. First of all High garden alone is much bigger than house tarly and house high tower(fighting men wise). And every house in the reach wouldn't turn its cloak. Also, mace Tyrrell would only lead in name. Garlan would most likely lead the reach against euron. Who by the way, is only trying to stir up enough trouble to cover Victorian's little meereen vacation. So do you really think he will take too many risks?

[aryagonnakill]

I'm a new to the forum thing but on the subject of the Reach I think you are way off. Cersei's scheming pretty much ruined the Tyrell/Lanister alliance in my opinion. Its Tarlley who flies to Kl and takes Margery into custody. I don't think the Reach would turn on Highgardern and even if it did that battle would not be the epic mace slaughter everyone makes it out to be. First of all High garden alone is much bigger than house tarly and house high tower(fighting men wise). And every house in the reach wouldn't turn its cloak. Also, mace Tyrrell would only lead in name. Garlan would most likely lead the reach against euron. Who by the way, is only trying to stir up enough trouble to cover Victorian's little meereen vacation. So do you really think he will take too many risks?

Highgarden on it's own cannot mass more men then the Hightowers, just like Winterfell on it's own cannot mass more than White Harbor, or Casterly Rock Lannisport.

[Lady Blue Rose]

In an interview GRRM said that religions and gods would not play essential roles in the game of thrones. He said that religions in the show should be viewed as religions in the real world- many exist, everyone prays to their god but none will prove to be more real than the other (each will be THE true religion to its followers). No god would step in and win the game for a character nor would the character suddenly hear the god literally giving him answers.

[ZenFnMaester]

I don't think Stannis will be stupid enough to hoist any single religion's banner as his own. And no, he's not fighting for R'hllor, either - as you might've noticed, his own men are still followers of the seven/secular, despite the fact that a part of his army is devoted to the red god.

He literally has raised a religion as his banner. The fiery heart of the lord of light with the crowned stag inside ?

[qixoticneurotic]

fire consumes. stannis will be the king of ash. which is alot like snow when you think about it

[jarl the climber]

1) I will agree that many people will flock to Aegon, the hightowers have always been Targaryen loyalists but Tarly? that's pure speculation, moreover when sam comes to old town he hears that lord hightower is not in his right mind or his wife whispering in his ears all the time. Randall Tarly is the most capable soldier in the reach, the best battle commander but Horn Hill lands are not as big as the other houses in the reach, he is a hard man and a soldier to his bone, loyalty to his liege lord means something to him, and it does matter if the tyrells march on him or not, the outcome of that battle will be important, (theres a Tyrell army heading towards SE) Mace Tyrell "Lord Pufffish" is the most likely person to join Aegon if Maragerys trial is not in their favour, although that can be debated as he is hungry for power and his daughter is queen. As for Tarly he wont be the first to turn his cloak, he will only change sides if Matthis Rowan and Redwynes change sides to Aegon.

2) Stannis turning to the old gods! Stannis will follow the lord of light until he learns that he is not AA, and Stannis was never a man who put much faith in the god(s), he chose Rhollor cause melisandre is powerful and he knows she can help him win the iron throne, he was never a beliver of the seven as well since the day the ship carrying his father and mother crashed in the shipbreaker bay I think at SE, Stannis doesn't belive in god(s) but will make use of them, as for theon, Stannis is doing that to please the northmen, Jon had warned that the old gods are strong in the north and not to offend them, everyone still belives theon killed bran and rickon, the northmen want his head in front of a heart tree and stannis agrees cause that will keep the northmen happy and loyal and perhaps more will join him.

3) Well if victarion blows the horn as we know he will from GRRM's reading of victarion chapter, this wont make the mother of dragons happy even if victarion fought on her side while she was away in the dothraki sea, and I am not so sure about slemy being sceptical about the whole prophecy thing, it was he who told dany once about Rhaegar reading the song of ice and fire and deciding he should become a warrior, barristan tells dany that her fathers secrets are hers but I am not sure the same would apply to Rhaegar, As for the Red Priest dany may listen to him but may not adopt the faith of Rhollor as she is weary of magic and stuff, a lesson she learnt from MM, will she destroy the faith of the seven kingdoms to adopt a new one, she doesn't seem the type.

1. I would tend to agree that the support that Aegon is hoping for in the Reach is probaly overated. Everyone in the Reach is concerned about the Ironborn invasion which kind of unites them and makes a civil war type scenario more unlikely. If the Dornish support Aegon and Arrianne agrees to marry him Aegon could be perceived as being part of a Dornish plot. The best chance Aegon would have is to offer help against the Ironborn while the Throne is doing nothing for them. Cerseis descision to hold up Redwynes fleet seems to have been unpoplular in the Reach. For now Mace is refusing to move his army from Kings Landing til Marges trial is over.

2. Stannis only really seems to care about power, or something that he can tangibly see. If paying lip service to the Old Gods improves his standing with his Northern subjects or yeilds him any tangible advantage he will take it. He has not been called to task for burning the Godswood of Storms End or the Sept of Dragonstone. At the same time on a personal level, Stannis reportedly spends a great deal of time staring into the fires on his own and by his own admission has visions of his own and he has made descisions based on these visions. I'm not saying Stannis is a beleiver but he has some ability on his own to interpert the flames.

3. Dany has no interaction with the Faith in Westeros. She is a child of incest and the new fundamentalist order might balk at putting her on the throne. I'm not exactly sure how her anti-slavery crusade would be perceived but they probaly would not want her coming to Westeros with a hundred thousand foreigners the vast majority of whom who do not practice the Faith. Still she has her dragons and probaly loads of gold to help rebuild and feed Westeros. The High Septon is conscious of pulic opinion, the people on the street might regard her being Queen as Westeros's destiny. Dany is all ready half foreign so she has nothing to gain by turning against the Faith publicly. Stannis probaly burned down the Sept she was named in.(the one on Dragonstone.)

On the other hand there are R'hollorites in Volantis who seem eager to embrace the Dragon Queen. Her anti-slavery campaign is popular with them. While this support would and will be welcomed by her I do not think that she will completely embrace the temple leadership like Moquoro. Mouquro could be highly useful to her if she has to move against Volantis militarily. She might have issues with accepting their declaration that she is the worlds savior.

[Silent_Hero]

fire consumes. stannis will be the king of ash. which is alot like snow when you think about it

It's a bit of a duology if you think about it

Ice is hard cold and unforgiving but also steadfast durable and unmoving

Fire consumes and yet is in itself life as all life carries fire in them.

[mrlukeduke]

Stannis only really seems to care about power, or something that he can tangibly see. If paying lip service to the Old Gods improves his standing with his Northern subjects or yeilds him any tangible advantage he will take it. He has not been called to task for burning the Godswood of Storms End or the Sept of Dragonstone. At the same time on a personal level, Stannis reportedly spends a great deal of time staring into the fires on his own and by his own admission has visions of his own and he has made descisions based on these visions. I'm not saying Stannis is a beleiver but he has some ability on his own to interpert the flames.

I forgot he burned the godswood. This might bite him in the ass at some point up north.

What I am intrigued by is how comfortable Melisandre seems at Castle Black around the various "powers" of the north (heart trees, dire wolf, etc) and in meddling with the Old Gods in general. She even "feeds off" the magic of the Wall somehow. But she was actively burning a godswood with Stannis not long past! She has some serious figurative cojones, that mental red witch.

On the other hand there are R'hollorites in Volantis who seem eager to embrace the Dragon Queen. Her anti-slavery campaign is popular with them. While this support would and will be welcomed by her I do not think that she will completely embrace the temple leadership like Moquoro.

Oh, I think she'll accept it with all the hubris and megalomania a Targaryen Dragon Queen can muster! But you're right, the key is Volantis I think, and a potential slave uprising there. I really feel like Dani needs to either go with R'Hllor proper, or at least make a show of it by doing what Stannis and Victarion are doing. She needs a red priest, even if just to sway others to her cause. Or she can keep it more low profile (just have a sorcerer onboard for the lols) and dump the Red God when she needs to in Westeros.

[Brother Seamus]

I don't see it for a couple of reasons.

first, I don't see stannis turning to the old gods. he either sticks with rhllor or goes back to the seven. I vote for sticking with rhllor, and that it proves his undoing.

I don't see dany working with moqorro. remember the ship they came on is the "perfumed seneschal" that dany was told to beware. this could mean that one of the other passengers on that ship - Tyrion or Jorah-become her adversary, but my money is on moqorro and the rhllor.

all this raises one of the biggest meta-questions of the series: which religion comes out on top? my money is with the old gods, because I think that is where GRRM's sympathies lie. I think it is bran and the CotF and the old gods who prove instrumental is fending off the others, and when it's all over have a much more dominant influence in the religious life of westeros than at the beginning of GOT.

[Lord Greystark]

I don't see it for a couple of reasons.

first, I don't see stannis turning to the old gods. he either sticks with rhllor or goes back to the seven. I vote for sticking with rhllor, and that it proves his undoing.

I don't see dany working with moqorro. remember the ship they came on is the "perfumed seneschal" that dany was told to beware. this could mean that one of the other passengers on that ship - Tyrion or Jorah-become her adversary, but my money is on moqorro and the rhllor.

all this raises one of the biggest meta-questions of the series: which religion comes out on top? my money is with the old gods, because I think that is where GRRM's sympathies lie. I think it is bran and the CotF and the old gods who prove instrumental is fending off the others, and when it's all over have a much more dominant influence in the religious life of westeros than at the beginning of GOT.

Valar Morghulis. All men must die. Winter (Nymeria) is coming. The Iron Bank will have it's due. I bet the House of Black and White comes out on top, they have a pretty formidable champion.