Is it acknowledged that House Lannister Destroyed House Stark?

[Barty]

The Stark lost this war and thats clear. Why? They started with the objective to rescue Ned and decided later to fight for independence. Ned is dead and even if the house survives this whole mess it wont be as independent kings of the north. The most they can hope for that they will somehow keep what they had as this whole mess began.

I think they will survive and will remain the wardens of the north. But thats basically what they started as and their position will be wastly weakened. They will be wardens of the north not because of their strength, but because of a royal grace and the support of some of the bannermen. And thats only if things end as i think they will. If lets say Danny and up as queen of Westeros (i hope not) than in her hate against house Stark she may well decide to finish the Lannisters work.

Why do i think they will and up wardens of the north? Because whoever wins will have a good choice in them. The house is weak now but most of the north is still loyal to them. So placing lets say Rickon in this position is optimal. They are weakened greatly so they can forget any claims of independence but tradition and the loyal bannermen will keep the north together and in order. Not to mention that Rickon is young and unmarried....

They pose no treat, they can keep the order in the north and they are easily bound to anyone who wins this struggle.

(except if the Lannisters win but i dont think thats likely)

I see it completely differently - with Rickon as King in the North and Jon as his regent the North is extremely strong. They now have the support of the wildlings as well(via Jon). Their military strength is weakened considerably but whose isn't?? The Lannisters have lost far more men than the Starks and will continue to lose more, the Tullys have been devastated, The reach is in the process of being destroyed by Euron and probably Aegon, The stormlords are spent. The only armies intact are those of the vale and Dorne.

None of whom are strong enough to march up North to winterfell and force the King of Winter to kneel. Only Danny with her dragons could hope to unite the North with the 7 kingdoms again but she cannot control her dragons and is thousands of miles away and has shown no intent till now to get to westeros.

[Sansa_Stark]

Fine.

Sorry about the insult about the grammar, but you did it right in the post

Generally i try to maintain a good tone but for the first time in 550 posts i will allow myself to be offensive. I'm tired of listening to the ramblings a 12 year old child about "trolling" that has no idea what the word means or in what context to use it as apparently you are raised by the internet that denied you a basic knowledge of common courtesy and respect for others. What characters I like and dislike is strictly a question of opinion and the idea of a forum is for opinions to be shared and for people to see the point of views of other people - if someone disagrees with it's because he is different human not because he tries to be original. Never will you see me claim that someone else's opinion is wrong and he should stop expresing it - if the way i choose to enterpret a book or a character offends you then feel free to stop responding to and reading what i wright.

I don't care about your opinions. Just the way you express them and argue for them.

[Lord Illidan Stormrage]

Fine.

Sorry about the insult about the grammar, but you did it right in the post

I don't care about your opinions. Just the way you express them and argue for them.

The opinion i argued with is that Tywin is hated by the commoners and lords who serve him - something i find ridiculous and try to defend a characted i like from insults i find unreasonable - if you claim that Stannis is a criminal or that Ned is a traitor you will get the same kind of responses from their respective fan bases.

[Winterz]

Because they'd rather have anyone sitting in winterfell than Roose Bolton and his bastard.

So why haven't they elected a new leader? In fact, even their loyalty to Stannis is dubious. Both Boltons, Stannis and Lannisters already confirmed that only a Stark could rule the North. That is the whole point of them trying to arrange marriages with alleged Starks.

Because of Northern nationalism and the Stark name is their greatest chance to be free of the Iron throne.

Again, nonsense. So how exactly do they expect a broken house to restore their name and free them?

Why do the people of Dorne still cry out for revenge for Elia Martell?

Because she was Princess of Dorne, beloved by her people and because she and her children were brutally murdered. This doesn't exactly mean they love and follow blindly House Martell.

[Lord Illidan Stormrage]

So why haven't they elected a new leader? In fact, even their loyalty to Stannis is dubious. Both Boltons, Stannis and Lannisters already confirmed that only a Stark could rule the North. That is the whole point of them trying to arrange marriages with alleged Starks.

Again, nonsense. So how exactly do they expect a broken house to restore their name and free them?

Because she was Princess of Dorne, beloved by her people and because she and her children were brutally murdered. This doesn't exactly mean they love and follow blindly House Martell.

I think this is one argument that can only be resolved by the word of god. It seems like a question GRRM would not deny so next time someone has the chance he/she should ask GRRM if all the nobles are loyal to their lord paramounts to the same degree like the northen ones - we have too little information from the book to deduce the truth.

[LuisDantas]

One theme that I believe exists in Song is that Houses are over-rated. House Lannister has basically self-destructed, as have Houses Baratheon, Frey and Bolton. ADWD even lampshaded a House conquering its seat from itself.

What remains of House Lannister is by no means united in purpose or perception. By contrast, while Jon, Sansa, Arya, Bran and Rickon all face serious hardships of their own, their loyalties and reputations are largely intact or at least salvageable. If anything, they have all been tempered by their experiences... as has Jaime Lannister, who is looking more and more like a "compromise candidate" of sorts to me. He has learned a lot from Brienne and the Riverlands, and I believe he will eventually attempt to redeem himself and his House.

[LuisDantas]

There's plenty of examples of Northern lords looking out for their own interests ahead of the Starks wishes.

GreatJon Umber, threatened to leave Robb's host unless he was given a good place in the line of march and actually raised a sword against him.

Wyman Manderly seized the Hornwood lands to "protect" them from Ramsey Bolton against Rodrik cassles wishes.

Rickard Karstark ignores Robbs orders and excecutes two innocent boys for his own personal revenge.

Roose Bolton assasinates Robb to curry favour with the Lannisters.

Those are 4 of the North's stongest bannermen, prepared to defy Stark wishes to suit their own ends. I'm not sure why people find that so easy to ignore.

1. Greatjon was taking Robb's measure at the time. He was satisfied and loyal ever since.

2. Wyman Manderly is loyal to the Starks, albeit not always in agreement with Rodrik Cassel or necessarily wise in his choices.

3. Rickard Karstark was out of his mind due to the loss of his sons, arguably suicidal even. That episode was not representative of his typical mindset.

4. You may have a point about Roose Bolton. There is probably some story to be told someday about the Boltons before Song.

[PureGold]

You can say that Myrcella and Tommen are children and shouldn't be punished for what their parents and grandfather did, but then again, Rhaenys and Aegon were kids too, but they weren't spared were they. I dont think they would hurt the children, but there is nothing stopping them from killing Cersei, Jaime, or Tyrion. But thats not what they want. They want to destroy House Lannister. They could easily spread Tommens true parentage which could capture the High Septons attention (Remember that Teyne Sand has been sent as a Septa) and Tommen and the Lannisters wont have any claim for the throne. That is if they dont choose the bloody way as well.

The Sand Snakes DO want Tommen dead. Quite a few of them commented on it in AFFC/ADWD. When the Kingsguard came to Dorne and made a toast to the health of King Tommen, One Sand Snake raised her cup and turned it over spilling her wine all over and quite a few others just refused to drink period.

They also don't seem TERRIBLY upset about Myrcella being scarred and disfigured after Arianne's little scheme went awry.

I do think the Sand Snakes will be behind Tommens death with Tyene and Lady Nym heading to Kings Landing.

[Penguin king]

So why haven't they elected a new leader? In fact, even their loyalty to Stannis is dubious. Both Boltons, Stannis and Lannisters already confirmed that only a Stark could rule the North. That is the whole point of them trying to arrange marriages with alleged Starks.

Because House manderly doesn't want to see House Umber on the throne and house karstark would rather not be ruled by a Glover etc. They want a ruler they can all agree on. House Stark fits the bill.

Again, nonsense. So how exactly do they expect a broken house to restore their name and free them?

Rickon is a rallying point. A figurehead. They don't need a Stark to lead them, they want a Stark to unify them. The same way they talked Robb into taking the crown for himself. That wasn't his idea if you'll remember. Umber, Karstark and Mormont forced it on him.

Because she was Princess of Dorne, beloved by her people and because she and her children were brutally murdered. This doesn't exactly mean they love and follow blindly House Martell.

And no one blindly follows House Stark either. If Rickon turns out to be a wild dog he'll be put down. The North mean aren't stupid.

[the trees have eyes]

Because House manderly doesn't want to see House Umber on the throne and house karstark would rather not be ruled by a Glover etc. They want a ruler they can all agree on. House Stark fits the bill.

Rickon is a rallying point. A figurehead. They don't need a Stark to lead them, they want a Stark to unify them. The same way they talked Robb into taking the crown for himself. That wasn't his idea if you'll remember. Umber, Karstark and Mormont forced it on him.

And no one blindly follows House Stark either. If Rickon turns out to be a wild dog he'll be put down. The North mean aren't stupid.

They aren't stupid, no, bur Rickon or AN Other Stark is not the compromise candidate you are suggesting the way Jon Snow was the compromise candidate for Ser Denys Mallister and Cotter Pyke. There is a genuine affection for and loyalty to House Stark.

This is made very clear by the Northern mountain clans following Stannis to rescue "Ned's little girl" and the disquiet in Winterfell that Ramsey Snow / Bolton is making his bride weep. Manderley does not pick Rickon, young boy that he is, as a compromise to forestall another House or so he can rule at one remove by exploiting him as his protector, but because he wants Ned's bloodline to continue ruling in the North. If Rickon grows into a Joffrey or an Aerys (or a Ramsey) I expect the result to be the same - assassination - but I am not expecting that.

He's a rallying point, sure, that's what an heir is in an era of dynastic succession and feudal homage but he's a lot more than a figurehead.