Glass Candles, Dragon Glass, and Lightbringer

[WeirwoodTreeHugger]

Where is actually the evidence that there is an other Ice than the Valaryian steel one Eddard had.

(not that I think it's nonsense, but I missed the mentioning of an older Ice)

It's mentioned that Ice is only hundreds of years old and before that there was another Ice. We aren't told where it is, so many think it's the Winterfell crypts.

What I want to know is can you kill an Other by chucking an obsidian candle at his head? :cool4:

[Aurane Velaryon]

Where is actually the evidence that there is an other Ice than the Valaryian steel one Eddard had.

(not that I think it's nonsense, but I missed the mentioning of an older Ice)

AGOT, Catelyn's first chapter where she is in the Godswood with Eddard.

the valyrian steel sword Ice has only been in the Stark's possession for 400 years and was named after the original Ice sword from the Age of Heroes. so you can expect the original Ice to be like 8000-6000 years old.

[Dragonmag170]

Ice was one of the last swords made in Valyria before the fall, as it is about 5-600 years old.

I personally believe that NO sword, ever, whatsoever, can last (in this series) for more that one or two thousand years without being reforged to strengthen the metal. Martin included Ned's descriprion in book one of the crypts of winterfell for a reason:

By ancient custom and iron longsword had been laid across the lap of each who had been Lord of Winterfell, to keep the vengeful spirits in their crypts. The oldest had long ago rusted away to nothing, leaving only a few red stains where the metal had once rested on stone.

-AGOT

That quote is quite clear. The oldest swords in the crypts of winterfell, even in a cold, presumably pretty dry place, have rusted away to nothing. That DOES, yes, happen- a sword can only rust when it is exposed to the open air, as rust is a chemical process requiring oxygen, and the swords in the crypts have been sitting out for thousands of years.

I DO NOT believe that any sword in ASOIAF is more than 1,000 years old. Not truely. Now, maybe the METAL is older, but every sword eventually must be reforged, or it becomes too weak to be used and is useless. Even Valyrian Steel. Even Dawn. I am fully certain that, every few hundred years, each ancestral sword must be reforged.

Swords like Ice from the Age of Heroes, and Lightbringer are simply far, far too old to exist exactly as they were. Hundreds of years of use takes its toll on a blade, and no amount of magic can stop that eventual process. Martin seems to really like the idea of inevitable processes: the wall can only hold back the Others for so long, but eventually they WILL return. The Stark words say it perfectly; Winter is Coming. All things come to an end, and begin again. This applies to magic, as well. I cannot believe that any sword would survive for thousands and thousands of years and still be functional.

Now, that said, a sword which is reforged again, and again, and again COULD survive. It would not be as "powerful" as it once was, nor would the magic be as potent, but the sword would still technically exist.

Why do I bring all of this up? Because the legend of Lightbringer states that AA forged the sword himself, and tempered ti with his wife's blood. Assuming the sword (and the prophecy) are real, then that means that the new AA would also need to forge his own Lightbringer. It might not even need to be from the same materials. the point is that whether or not Lightbringer the sword still exists in completely irrelevant, because someone holding the sword isnt the prophecy. Someone needs to MAKE the sword.

[herworship429]

I think the sword and the story of its forging were more probably meant as metaphors. The sword probably doesn't have to be forged again, but it will require three sacrifices to find it. Or maybe it's the idea that the specific sword doesn't matter, it's the person who wields it who gives it it's power (isn't that part of the Excalibur legends somewhere? That whatever sword Arthur is holding becomes Excalibur?), and the sacrifices are about proving oneself worthy and capable of summoning that power. Which means that Lightbringer could be anything. That said, the Others were defeated the first time around by a bunch of Northmen and the Children of the Forest; dragons might be immensely helpful in defeating the Others, but they're hardly necessary, so I'm not at all convinced that Dany is AA reborn, though she could be the Prince that was Promised (assuming that prophecy is talking about a different person).

Interesting that 'fire made stone' is the only thing that can kill the Others... so maybe whatever mystery material their weapons are made of is ice made stone? It also makes me wonder if only certain obsidian, that has been imbued somehow with magic, can kill Others. That would suck for the NW if they get a bunch of obsidian blades from Dragonstone only to find that they don't work...

This may be a little off topic, but I had a thought about all these prophecies and stories... now, I know it's still pretty much up for debate as to whether they are all talking about the same person or if they're totally separate (though I think we can assume that they might at least be related to one another, and I'm leaning towards the idea that AA and the Last Hero are one and the same, and the Prince who was Promised is someone else). My question was what exactly do we know about the historical origins of R'hllor as a religion? Where exactly did it originate, and more importantly, how old is it? The fact that the Azor Ahai prophecy is the most complete makes me think that it's also the youngest, and if so, it seems to have borrowed aspects from the Last Hero story (at least). It's possible then that the 'born amidst smoke and salt', the bleeding star, the idea of a birth or a rebirth of the hero in question, and even Melissandre's attempts to 'wake dragons from stone' (though that doesn't really have anything to do with AA specifically) were also borrowed, from the PwwP legend. Perhaps whoever founded R'hllor had read a more complete version of that prophecy, mixed it with the story of the Last Hero, and put their own spin on it (the blood magic and the worship of fire). Or the AA story about Lightbringer and Nissa Nissa was augmented with details from the LH story and the PwwP prophecy. Because I find it incredibly strange that two of the three central figures in the most important legend from an eastern religion that has never had much of a stronghold in Westeros seems to be based on a Northern Westerosi myth. I've read threads where it's been suggested that some survivors of the Long Night may have fled across the Narrow Sea/Shivering Sea to Essos and sought refuge there. In addition, if the Prince that was Promised really was an ancient prophecy from Old Valyria, is it possible that the founders of R'hllor pieced together a religion from fragments of stories they'd heard from Westros and Valyria?

I apologize if this sounds a bit crackpot, or I'm rehashing what someone else has already discussed to death. Obviously, the Red Priests and Priestesses do have real magical abilities, and for all we know, there really is a R'hllor, but it just seems like too much of a coincidence. And the Nissa Nissa story and the forging of Lightbringer strike me more as a fable containing clues for those who want to find Azor Ahai reborn than an account of something that actually happened. A quest disguised as a story, if you will.

[Morienthar]

I DO NOT believe that any sword in ASOIAF is more than 1,000 years old. Not truely. Now, maybe the METAL is older, but every sword eventually must be reforged, or it becomes too weak to be used and is useless. Even Valyrian Steel. Even Dawn. I am fully certain that, every few hundred years, each ancestral sword must be reforged.

While I agree with you that most unused and un maintained swords would go to rust,I have personally seen a Saber which had been maintained in pristine condition with a cutting edge to boot since the early 1200's.

What I mean is with proper oiling and cleaning swords like Dawn could be maintained for thousands of years without a real need for reforging which frankly would make the structure weaker.

[manting]

you guys are obsessing over swords when they can have little or no impact in the "war for the dawn." Again, one guy with a sword, no matter how baddass the sword, cannot defeat the others. While he is fighting one or two of them another one will simply come up behind him (or her) and run them through. This makes a single sword, no matter how magical, useless when discussing fighting an army of evil ice monsters.

The dragons are the "sword of fire." Dragons are "fire made flesh." Think about it, dragons are weapons, they breath fire and they can be ridden (read wielded). I thought this was crazy obvious. There are dozens of hints that all relate to this and the completely obvious fact that to defeat a army of ice zombies you need fire breathing dragons - not a sword.

If there is an actual lightbringer sword it could be any of half a dozen swords. What about Longclaw? It is burned when Jon fights the zombie to save the old bear.

What about Oathkeeper? It is forged from Ice.

What about stannis's sword? (ok we all agree that it is clearly not lightbringer (if lightbringer is a sword)

What about Blackfyre - the old targ blade?

What about Dark Sister? Wouldnt Bloodraven have taken it with him north to the wall and beyond?

[WildBlood]

you guys are obsessing over swords when they can have little or no impact in the "war for the dawn." Again, one guy with a sword, no matter how baddass the sword, cannot defeat the others. While he is fighting one or two of them another one will simply come up behind him (or her) and run them through. This makes a single sword, no matter how magical, useless when discussing fighting an army of evil ice monsters.

The dragons are the "sword of fire." Dragons are "fire made flesh." Think about it, dragons are weapons, they breath fire and they can be ridden (read wielded). I thought this was crazy obvious. There are dozens of hints that all relate to this and the completely obvious fact that to defeat a army of ice zombies you need fire breathing dragons - not a sword.

If there is an actual lightbringer sword it could be any of half a dozen swords. What about Longclaw? It is burned when Jon fights the zombie to save the old bear.

What about Oathkeeper? It is forged from Ice.

What about stannis's sword? (ok we all agree that it is clearly not lightbringer (if lightbringer is a sword)

What about Blackfyre - the old targ blade?

What about Dark Sister? Wouldnt Bloodraven have taken it with him north to the wall and beyond?

I tend to agree with this... And on top of what was said above, there is no proof that Valyrian Steel blades are made with or in dragon fire... only with spells lost with the valyrian doom.

[Dragonmag170]

While I agree with you that most unused and un maintained swords would go to rust,I have personally seen a Saber which had been maintained in pristine condition with a cutting edge to boot since the early 1200's.

erm... That sword is less that a thousand years old. Its 800- about the age of some of the oldest known swords in westeros.

I'm not saying a sword could not possibly last over a thousand years, but the time frame we are talking about for lightbringer/ice is well over 6,000 years. That's simply too long to believe, for me. Even with magic.

The other difference between swords in our world and those in GoT is that in GoT they are pretty consistently used, and have been for hundreds of years. With the advent of gunpowder, older swords were turned into heirlooms, and guns/newer swords were picked up. Blades like Ice are used regularly and, while well maintained, the blade can only take so much before it must be re-worked or replaced.

[RumHam]

I tend to agree with this... And on top of what was said above, there is no proof that Valyrian Steel blades are made with or in dragon fire... only with spells lost with the valyrian doom.

Well there's no proof, but it's mentioned that they are made with dragon fire a few times in the books.

“Ser Jorah Mormont,” she said, “first and greatest of my knights, I have no bride gift to give you, but I swear to you, one day you shall have from my hands a longsword like none the world has ever seen, dragon-forged and made of Valyrian steel. And I would ask for your oath as well.”

Longclaw had been forged in the fires of old Valyria, forged in dragonflame and set with

spells.

[hodor stark]

place holder gunna read more later :cool4:

[WildBlood]

There was a post a while back that I voiced the same opinion in, where many many other posters then lynched me for voicing such a 'stupid' opinion... :box:

[manting]

also all these posts about the age of swords - WTF?!! Magic swords can last as long as they want. They are fucking magic. The swords in the Stark Crypts are iron - iron rusts - valaryian swords NEVER need sharpening - they are magic. The only times they are reforged is like the case of ICE - they use it to make 2 swords. They did not reforge the same sword to make it stronger or repair it.

Stop sword obessessing - Lightbringer/the sword of fire is/are the dragons. It is so clear. Look at the way the dragons were birthed/forged. Dany has her husband KILLED (just like the story of AA and using his wife's heart to temper lightbringer) to hatch the dragons along wih Miri Maz Dur and herself. 3 sacrifices + 3 dragons or "swords of fire." Also if you are fighting an army of ice demons than dragons are the way to go - not a single sword.

[hodor stark]

Lightbringer/the sword of fire is/are the dragons. It is so clear. Look at the way the dragons were birthed/forged. Dany has her husband KILLED (just like the story of AA and using his wife's heart to temper lightbringer).

i dont know what i beleive on these theories tbh but wasnt lightbringer also temper on a lions heart what if the dragons eat tyrion that could be the lion tempering part probably not but just a thought lol

[The Faceless Alchemist]

Well, I think the glass candles are just a kind of beacon, an alarm that sets off (starts burning) when it senses magic coming back to the world of ASOIAF.

As for Lightbringer, I personally think the "sword" is just a metaphor for a kind of tool that helps AA to destroy the Others, maybe "Lightbringer" is the Night's Watch that has to be tempered by the blood of what is the most precious thing for them - their Lord Commander, just to be strong enough to face the Others

[Morienthar]

erm... That sword is less that a thousand years old. Its 800- about the age of some of the oldest known swords in westeros.

I'm not saying a sword could not possibly last over a thousand years, but the time frame we are talking about for lightbringer/ice is well over 6,000 years. That's simply too long to believe, for me. Even with magic.

The other difference between swords in our world and those in GoT is that in GoT they are pretty consistently used, and have been for hundreds of years. With the advent of gunpowder, older swords were turned into heirlooms, and guns/newer swords were picked up. Blades like Ice are used regularly and, while well maintained, the blade can only take so much before it must be re-worked or replaced.

1.Our would hasn't had quality steel for as long as westeros has had.

2.VS is apparently so good it can keep it's edge perpetually.

3.Swords like Dawn were more or less heirlooms I don't think a Sword of the Morning exists all the time,So it is certainly possible for a few swords to survive as long Dawn has and of course there is whether you like it or not a decent bit of magic involved.