Could Cersei have stopped it?

[Golden Lion]

For Ned family comes before anything. Ned would never have acted whilst Arya or Sansa were at Kings Landing and either would Catelyn. After a few years sending Arya home and marrying Sansa to a one of Kevan's childrens would have kept the North and the Riverrlands quiet.

That's what I said.

And yes Lancel and Sansa's marriage would probably be the only way to quell rebellion in the north.

[mrunderhill]

That's what I said.

And yes Lancel and Sansa's marriage would probably be the only way to quell rebellion in the north.

I know I was agreeing with you.

[Lion of Judah]

The Nightswatch vow does not depend on the good character, or the legitimacy of the king. It is not sworn in his name.

It is sworn before the old gods and it makes you oathbound to play no part in the affairs of the realm. Breaking it would be dishonourable once Ned had sworn it.

True, but Ned never swore the vows of the watch. I think for Ned to stay his hand Cersei would have to send him North with his girls. I just can't see him pouting at the wall while his daughters are in Lannister hands and living out his days with nothing but his honor. That would be worse than getting beheaded.

[Golden Lion]

In theory Cersei could have stopped it but in reality no. Stopping Joffrey in public creates too many problems.

As Cersei says in the show, try stopping him from doing what he likes. It doesn't end well.

I know I was agreeing with you.

Oh, oops! Sorry.

[Chaircat Meow]

True, but Ned never swore the vows of the watch. I think for Ned to stay his hand Cersei would have to send him North with his girls. I just can't see him pouting at the wall while his daughters are in Lannister hands and living out his days with nothing but his honor. That would be worse than getting beheaded.

Pretty sure that is what he agreed to do: to save Sansa.

[Golden Lion]

True, but Ned never swore the vows of the watch. I think for Ned to stay his hand Cersei would have to send him North with his girls. I just can't see him pouting at the wall while his daughters are in Lannister hands and living out his days with nothing but his honor. That would be worse than getting beheaded.

You say this like ned gets any choice.

Ned would be escorted to the wall by lannister troops, assuming no one intercepts them and Ned gets to the wall they'd probably get him to swear his vows before they leave.

Ned won't forsake his honour, Cersei's original plan puts him in a situation where he cannot win.

[Lion of Judah]

Pretty sure that is what he agreed to do: to save Sansa.

It was agreed upon for Sansa after Varys told him Arya escaped, it was also made clear that he would be a dead man no matter what.

[Lion of Judah]

You say this like ned gets any choice.

Ned would be escorted to the wall by lannister troops, assuming no one intercepts them and Ned gets to the wall they'd probably get him to swear his vows before they leave.

Ned won't forsake his honour, Cersei's original plan puts him in a situation where he cannot win.

Ned already began to question his code of honor and the situation he got his children into by playing things by the book. I agree with the other poster that had he sworn the watchmen vow then he would not break it, but I don't think he would go by the same code that led him into a cell again had he gotten another chance.

[Chaircat Meow]

It was agreed upon for Sansa after Varys told him Arya escaped, it was also made clear that he would be a dead man no matter what.

He agreed to make a confession to save Sansa.

I can't recall whether taking the black was included in the package.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure Cersei didn't want Ned dead.

[Golden Lion]

Ned already began to question his code of honor and the situation he got his children into by playing things by the book. I agree with the other poster that had he sworn the watchmen vow then he would not break it, but I don't think he would go by the same code that led him into a cell again had he gotten another chance.

That was to carrying out his dead friend's wishes. That's not really questioning his honour because that was motivated by honouring robert and fuelled even more by doing the honourable thing of deposing a pretender baratheon on the throne. All of which he only considered doing after he was sure his children were on their way to winterfell.

Ned won't risk his children's lives for anything, that's why he confessed and that's why he'd do whatever the lannisters wanted so long as they had sansa.

[Lion of Judah]

He agreed to make a confession to save Sansa.

I can't recall whether taking the black was included in the package.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure Cersei didn't want Ned dead.

Varys seems to have had some information that we were not privy to at the time, because he told Ned as much. No matter how things played out he was a dead man, which leads me to believe Cersei knew the deal and was just stringing Ned along. I could be wrong about that though.

[Chaircat Meow]

Varys seems to have had some information that we were not privy to at the time, because he told Ned as much. No matter how things played out he was a dead man, which leads me to believe Cersei knew the deal and was just stringing Ned along. I could be wrong about that though.

I'm afraid I am without my book. Don't worry if you can't do this, or don't have time, but could you quote me the piece that leads you to believe Ned was a dead man 'no matter what.'

That was not my impression at all.

[Golden Lion]

Varys seems to have had some information that we were not privy to at the time, because he told Ned as much. No matter how things played out he was a dead man, which leads me to believe Cersei knew the deal and was just stringing Ned along. I could be wrong about that though.

Cersei wouldn't do that. I know she wants to support her child but even she knows killing Ned would provoke war.

I think Varys is just aware that LF is manipulating Joffrey into killing Ned. Or that there might have been a plot to kill Ned on his way to the wall, after all the riverlands were rather dangerous at the time. Anything could happen

[mrunderhill]

Cersei wouldn't do that. I know she wants to support her child but even she knows killing Ned would provoke war.

I think Varys is just aware that LF is manipulating Joffrey into killing Ned. Or that there might have been a plot to kill Ned on his way to the wall, after all the riverlands were rather dangerous at the time. Anything could happen

This is where we disagree. I don't think anyone had to manipulate Joffrey into killing Ned. Joffrey wants all traitors dead and especially the three biggest, who were closest to his father: Stannis, Ned and Renly.

[Golden Lion]

This is where we disagree. I don't think anyone had to manipulate Joffrey into killing Ned. Joffrey wants all traitors dead and especially the three biggest, who were closest to his father: Stannis, Ned and Renly.

Varys pretty much confirmed LF talked Joffrey into it.

Which would explain why Joffrey started rebelling against Cersei's council.

[Lion of Judah]

That was to carrying out his dead friend's wishes. That's not really questioning his honour because that was motivated by honouring robert and fuelled even more by doing the honourable thing of deposing a pretender baratheon on the throne. All of which he only considered doing after he was sure his children were on their way to winterfell.

Ned won't risk his children's lives for anything, that's why he confessed and that's why he'd do whatever the lannisters wanted so long as they had sansa.

This is incorrect. He heard Robert's voice say "we won the throne together," and began thinking about Robert and how he failed him and lied to him at the end, but he was questioning his honor in general not just in carrying out Robert's final wishes. His exact questions were Can you eat pride, Stark? Will honor shield your children?” He was considering his overall predicament, not just Robert.

Not children, child. He knew they did not have Arya and was trying to save Sansa.

[Lion of Judah]

I'm afraid I am without my book. Don't worry if you can't do this, or don't have time, but could you quote me the piece that leads you to believe Ned was a dead man 'no matter what.'

That was not my impression at all.

Sorry it took so long I was typing but the passage in question is below:

Cersei keeps her close. She came to court a few days ago to plead that you be spared. A pity you couldn’t have been there, you would have been touched.” He leaned forward intently. “I trust you realize that you are a dead man, Lord Eddard?” “The queen will not kill me,” Ned said. His head began to swarm; the wine was strong, and it had been too long since he’d eaten. “Cat... Cat holds her brother...” “The wrong brother,” Varys sighed.

[mrunderhill]

Varys pretty much confirmed LF talked Joffrey into it.

Which would explain why Joffrey started rebelling against Cersei's council.

Did he? I must have missed that. Fair enough then, but Joffrey IS always talking about killing traitors and I wonder how LF could influence him. Joffrey did not seem like the type to listen to a man like LF.

[Chaircat Meow]

SNIP

Thanks Lion.

Isn't this before he effectively agrees to the confession plan though ... So we should read the dead man comments as 'as of now you are a dead man ... unless you do something very dishonourable,' ??

[Golden Lion]

This is incorrect. He heard Robert's voice say "we won the throne together," and began thinking about Robert and how he failed him and lied to him at the end, but he was questioning his honor in general not just in carrying out Robert's final wishes. His exact questions were Can you eat pride, Stark? Will honor shield your children?” He was considering his overall predicament, not just Robert.

Not children, child. He knew they did not have Arya and was trying to save Sansa.

You're arguing with hindsight.

At the time Ned tried to usurp joffrey he thought his children were on a ship to winterfell. All of Ned's questioning his honour after his capture doesn't really change anything because Ned's desire to save his children plural (for all he knew they could capture her at any time) override everything else.

Ned would never risk his children's life for his honour, he ruined his plans because he wouldn't even risk Cersei's children's lives.