Searching for meaning in the tale of The Ned

[Chaircat Meow]

Leadership, politics and power is one of the most salient themes in GrrM's work. How many of you look for a statement about the nature of politics in Ned's story? And if so, what is it.

I ask because there seem to be a number of prevailing views about what the author is trying to say in Ned's tale.

One (1) view is GrrM is trying to shock people by being unconventional as regards the standard fantasy tale: Ned is the good guy and he loses. This loss is explained by pointing to the bizarre luck enjoyed by one Cersei Lannister, who manages to have her husband killed on a boar hunt, destroying the basis of Ned's position and leading to his demise. On view (1) Ned responded to this crisis in an honourable and intelligent way and there wasn't much he could do to avert the outcome, unless he totally compromised his ideals. On this view Ned fell because he was honourable but honour isn't being critiqued as such, rather, Ned's end flowed from a series of unforeseeable 'rotten luck' style incidents. The good man has a place in politics but in this 'more realistic' fantasy setting he will come unstuck sometimes, like everyone else.

Another view (2) is that although Ned made mistakes on the eve of Robert's death the story is not so much about politics but about friendship. Ned's 'flaw' was his attempt to redeem his irredeemable friend, the handsome warrior whom the passage of years had transmogrified into a drunken, hopeless fool. Ned was still faithful to his old friend and stood up to him when he thought he did wrong. He didn't want power or influence for its own sake, and so he never built it up a powerbase (unlike, say, Tyrion) and when Robert died it was pretty natural for Ned to fall alongside him. So Ned should be seen as an honourable friend and viewed as regards his relation to Robert. (someone came up with this interpretation ~ cannot remember who it was)

A final view (3) is that Ned's tale is the ultimate warning about the place of the good man in politics. Ned was the most decent lord in the story, but his honour and his political naivety complemented and fed off each other. He knew he was waking into a nest of vipers but didn't possess the inclination to try and master his situation by assessing the motives of other powerbrokers, or building up his own supporters. He was forever hampered by a disinclination to do anything under handed, like seize Cersei's bastards while the castle slept, and couldn't even bring himself to ask Littlefinger to bride Slynt. Sometimes these kind of actions, distasteful as they are, are necessary evils in westeros's political system, and Ned wasn't cut out to see that. The fact he valued loyalty and honour meant he was laggardly at developing the capacity to assess people's motivations (i.e. Littlefinger) and this is the kiss of death in most political systems, especially a decentralized feudal one. Ned was a great guy but you need a tincture of Machiavelli in you to avoid bringing down ruin on your house and your family. So the good man is not a good politician. (I believe GrrM said something like this in relation to J. Carter but maybe I misremember).

Anyway, do you prefer one view of Ned over the other, are there interpretations I've missed out or is this search for a clear political message misguided?

Thoughts.

[Chaircat Meow]

Sorry for the bump, does anyone want to talk about this ...

[stu1987]

I think it's maybe a bit of all three. GRRM used Ned's death really well and got maximum effect from it in that: 1) it set us up for a story in which no one is safe. 2) it sparked the entire war which is engulfing Westeros.

Ned's legacy still lingers on as well, to a certain extent. His death has had a huge impact on a lot of the characters, and his memories of ToJ started the biggest discussion regarding the novels. I still think he was simply a plot tool though, that GRRM used really well.

[James Arryn]

I think people are inaccurate when they suppose Ned was blinded by honor. I think the point is Ned would choose honor w/e the consequences, neatly distinguishing honor from convenience. We may snigger, but his legacy seems to be more practically effective than that of several more practical men.

[Direwolfsigil]

The first time you see it you are blinded by Stark affinity and it's a mindblowing shocker to see the so called "main character" (he's on the cover) get his head cut off, but on subsequent readthroughs and viewings you can see Ned walk himself right into the trap.

It doesn't make him unlikable that he was naive and easy to manipulate, but it certainly doesn't have the same impact it did when you were blinded by everything else that's going on.

[Direwolfsigil]

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[James Arryn]

though, it is kind of ironic that when Varys asked him if he'd take the black, and he scoffs, and says " you think my life is such a precious thing to me?" ( before Varys asks him about his daughters and he has a realization)

yet he had no problem sending Jon there... so he'd rather die than take the black but sending jon there, no biggie?

A slip in Ned's honor IMO.

I'm not sure what point you're making. He scoffed at the idea of taking the Black to save his hide. I don't think he thinks the NW itself is dishonorable; his brother is there, after all. And besides, he didn't send Jon. He accepted his decision to go.

[stu1987]

I think

though, it is kind of ironic that when Varys asked him if he'd take the black, and he scoffs, and says " you think my life is such a precious thing to me?" ( before Varys asks him about his daughters and he has a realization)

yet he had no problem sending Jon there... so he'd rather die than take the black but sending jon there, no biggie?

A slip in Ned's honor IMO.

I would disagree with the last part about his honor. I think he would rather die than live as some dishonored hand who was exiled to the NW. Not that the NW is dishonorable, but that's how people would see it. I would agree that his legacy throughout the novels has been huge though.

[Direwolfsigil]

/

[kephv]

Tha's debatable.

Benjen and Ned discussed it before Jon said he wanted to go, and Ned didnt even say goodbye to him before he left.

We didn't see everything that happened during that two week gap when Ned talked to Cat and when Jon left. I don't see any reason he couldn't have said his farewells earlier.

[James Arryn]

Tha's debatable.

Benjen and Ned discussed it before Jon said he wanted to go, and Ned didnt even say goodbye to him before he left.

Also jon is mad that everyone except tyrion lied to him about the type of people that join the NW anyway.

he literally cries about it.

I really don't see the debate, tbh. Where do we ever see Ned slagging the NW? His family traditionally hold it in high regard, and the first time we see him he is upholding it's code. He scoffs at cowardice, not service in the NW. I truthfully don't see how else you can read it. As far as not saying goodbye; even assuming that's true, what does that have to do with honor? Ned probably doesn't think of the NW as the end for Jon...Benjen was, for example, visiting from there. Do we see Ned saying goodbye to Robb, I can't remember.

[Direwolfsigil]

We didn't see everything that happened during that two week gap when Ned talked to Cat and when Jon left. I don't see any reason he couldn't have said his farewells earlier.

agreed but theres no text to support that he did, im not saying ned was a terrible parent, but the text supports hed not bidding him farewell at all.

he says goodbye to bran, robb, and then arya, and leaves.

[Direwolfsigil]

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[stu1987]

To be fair to Ned, the NW is one of the few places where a bastard of the North can achieve any honor. And the Starks have a history of serving the Wall, so I don't see how Ned letting Jon join them is dishonorable.

[James Arryn]

The post I quoted said ned was not blinded by honor, I gave an example of Ned doing something I don't portray as honorable: sending Jon to the NW.

its not like im saying Ned is a bad man.

I wouldn't be bothered if you were saying Ned was a bad man. Opinions vary. I just don't see the connection between allowing Jon to do something his family have considered honorable for centuries and being dishonorable.

[Kernest]

I think we have a misunderstanding here: Ned didn't scoff at going to exile to the Wall, he scoffed at declaring Joffrey the true king and Robert's heir... Not doing that was what he was willing to die for, and like other Starks apparently, he still believed that there's honor in serving the Night's Watch, even though others don't think so anymore.

I think so far in ASOIAF we've seen evil triumph because good men weren't willing to "play the game", because they couldn't foresee horrible events or believed that people wouldn't violate traditions like the quest right... And even so the "bad" people are on the verge of collapsing from natural reasons and infighting, not to mentions their own shortcomings (I'm looking at you Cersei). That's what makes this an amazing story and why GRRM is a genius in his own right.

[Lady Nastja]

I think it's probably a bit of all three. GRRM used Ned's death to the full and got maximum effect from it. It Familiarised us with the fact that this is a world where everyone is at risk, and ignited the war which is destroyed Westeros.

As Stu1987 already said, Ned's legacy lives on to a certain extent. His death has had a huge impact on quite a few characters, and his POVs, especially his memories of Lyanna and the ToJ started the biggest discussion regarding the novels, which is still alive to this day. IMO, I think he was and always will be one of the main characters, alive or dead. I don't think he was a plot tool; yes, GRRM used him to show us what kind of a world Westeros is, but he was still an incredible character who was quite influential too.

[Thendel]

I definitely believe Ned's story serves to provide a contrast to other, more practical characters. For example, take Tywin's legacy: The kingdom he was carving is rapidly falling apart, the Lannister strength is exhausted and its name tarnished, and his children are more or less causing this decline. Now look at Ned: He died on the steps of Baelor, but his legacy lives on, and in Dance we see northmen wading through deep snow, with supplies running low and the cold creeping in, all for the sake of saving Ned's girl. We see that the Northern lords remember. If that's not a statement on what honor and benevolence is worth, I don't what is.

[Chaircat Meow]

I think it's probably a bit of all three. GRRM used Ned's death to the full and got maximum effect from it. It Familiarised us with the fact that this is a world where everyone is at risk, and ignited the war which is destroyed Westeros.

1 and 3 are kind of incompatible though ...

[eggs]

A bit of all three of course.

agreed, he has moments. It is kind of ironic that when Varys asked him if he'd take the black, and he scoffs, and says " you think my life is such a precious thing to me?" ( before Varys asks him about his daughters and he has a realization) yet he had no problem sending Jon there... so he'd rather die than take the black but sending jon there, no biggie? A slip in Ned's honor IMO.

I think you skipped something. What he said was that he wouldnt confess to treason to save his life.