Only death can pay for life. Spoilers?

[ser benjamin]

First topic, so please bear with me and spare me the japes on my novice use of the spoiler feature.

We hear over and over again that "only death can pay for life".

It seems to be a reoccurring theme.... and not just in one faith.

If a death must happen (theories suggest theon) to bring back jon,

Or

Rhego having to die to "bring back Drogo",

Who died all those times to

Bring back Berric?

I understand that it makes things more dramatic, but it doesn't seem like it's 100% necessary.

[revenant6]

Perhaps the quality of life is a factor.

Beric is brought back multiple times, but becomes less and less of his former self each time. UnCat is brought back from the "sacrifice" of Beric (who is kind of "used goods" at that point), so the life she gets back is moderately tainted.

If that kind of logic holds (and I am less than confident about it), Theon for Jon does not seem like that great of a deal for Jon...

[First of My Name]

I agree about Beric, but I guess an expert red priest can resurrect without other victims. Maybe they just used animals, but Beric's resurrection after dueling Sandor is swift and costless.

[ser benjamin]

Isnt Thoros a pretty awful priest by his own admission... or am i confusing show and book?

[mindchap]

Welcome first of all, and I think UnCat is the way she is because of how long she was dead, IIRC that's mentioned somewhere, but we don't really know exactly how that works, because like you said Beric comes back with no sacrifice, so who knows.

If Jon is dead then he will still live on at least to some degree within Ghost, so he could be dead, but still have a spiritual "toehold" on life. But personally I don't believe he's dead.

[Mikkel]

Isnt Thoros a pretty awful priest by his own admission... or am i confusing show and book?

I think he says something to the effect of "used to be, but has found his faith renewed after joining with the BWB".

[TheLostStark]

I would say that he himself died. When the dragons were born the three deaths I thought were Khal Drogo, Mirri Maz Durr and Dany herself walking into the pyre. Rhaego died to bring drogo back to life. So if this is right then it stands that if you died in a "righteous" fashion maybe you could be reborn. maybe?

[Roadside Rose]

Welcome, and nice observation.

I have always wondered how blood magic worked. Mirri uses the phrase "Only death can pay for life." When Mirri tries to help Drogo (when he is injured) they sacrifice his stallion. But that night Rhaego dies and four Dothraki also die fighting. But the revived Drogo seems to be in a vegetative state. (Mirri did intend to do more harm than good because she hated the Dothraki.)

In the funeral pyre when the dragons hatch, Dany sacrifices a stallion, Drogo who is already dead, and Mirri Maz Duur. And she walks into the pyre herself (not sure if a it was intended as a sacrifice).

The other place this phrase is used is by Jaqen H'ghar. Arya rescues him and Biter & Rorge from the fire. Later Jaqen tells her "The Red God (R'hllor) takes what is his. And only death can pay for life." He offers to kill three people in return.

I think Beric Dondarrion's case is different from the rest. Because Thoros of Myr talks of how he had given up his faith in R'hllor, but when he prayed the first time Beric is killed, he could resurrect him. That revives his faith in R'hllor and it seems Beric can be resurrected multiple times. Secondly, Beric was resurrected midst of a battle - so we don't know if someone dead on the field could be counted as sacrifice. And when Catelyn is resurrected by sacrificing Beric, 'only death can pay for life' phrase is fulfilled.

[StannisBamfatheon]

Hah first of all I've been on the board for a year and I still don't know how to use the spoiler thing. Also you don't really have to cause this is the ASOIAF general board, it's kind of understood we've all read it. But you pose some interesting questions, I always thought Baeric's revivals had to be more than just Thoros whispered some shenanigans or gave him a revive like pokemon. It remains to be seen if anyone died to bring him back though and may never get answered now that he's gone for good.

[Hempen Dan the Ropemaker]

Maybe his own death is the death? So if you die you can come back but you won't have your life the way it was.

I think MMD and what happened with drogo confuses things because she was trying to screw him and dany over on purpose.

[ser benjamin]

That's a good point. But if that's the case, could she also have lied to Dany about not being able to have anymore children? (i strongly think so)

Another crazy idea i had...... The meeting between Mel and Thoros "doesnt actually happen" ... however, if she does end up bringing Jon back after seeing him not burn, is it possible that TV scene could be used as the set up? She hasnt yet shown she can bring people back from the dead and doesnt seem to be aware of it. Maybe she stumbles on it like Thoros did...

[dim_mac]

The tv meetimg of Mel And Thoros is probably mainly because they didin't want to add another actor to play Edric, as in the books his role is limited aswell and Gendry serves the blood sacrife part. But your "crazy idea" would certainly serve well for the tv show

[ser benjamin]

The Edric/Gendry things makes sense.... although does anyone allow for things that happen in the show to be considered Cannon?

Here's my reasoning. WoW has to resolve Jon's situation pretty early. Either 7 (right?) stab wounds all missed vital organs and arteries (in which case the NW needs to be re-trained NOW) or Jon is dead and would have to be brought back, or GRRM will prove all conventional wisdom about his opus wrong. Getting long winded...

So far, the Red God is the only one who has brought people back from the dead. Mel is a Red Priestess, so it stands to reason she would be the one to do it (being right there and all). Perhaps we find out she DOES know Thoros from Bible camp (or some other meeting we wont know happened until she recounts it) That would make only PART of the TV show different and would let us look to the show for possible hints and clues about what's to come.... since the show-writers have more insight than us lowly fans....

So on to my backup. This week's episode, Written by GRRM, appears to answer a long standing question about what exactly Ramsay cut off of Theon. Gelding is hinted at, but never confirmed. If the Boy castrates Theon in a TV episode written by GRRM, does that answer the question once and for all? If so, does it set precedent for other show-reveals?

This may seem like it has no connection to my original post, but based on shared knowledge of Thoros and Mel, we might be able to find an answer as to whether a big sacrifice is needed to bring back Jon.

[TheLostStark]

Another crazy idea i had...... The meeting between Mel and Thoros "doesnt actually happen" ... however, if she does end up bringing Jon back after seeing him not burn, is it possible that TV scene could be used as the set up? She hasnt yet shown she can bring people back from the dead and doesnt seem to be aware of it. Maybe she stumbles on it like Thoros did...

I'm wondering if this is set up for an alternate ending in the TV show than in the books. Seems like for the TV audience a more hero wins the day ending may be in order, where the die hard fans will get a comlete twist when the last book comes out, thinking they already know the ending. This is assuming the TV show ends before the books are released. It would kind of be a win-win for both audiences.

So on to my backup. This week's episode, Written by GRRM, appears to answer a long standing question about what exactly Ramsay cut off of Theon. Gelding is hinted at, but never confirmed. If the Boy castrates Theon in a TV episode written by GRRM, does that answer the question once and for all? If so, does it set precedent for other show-reveals?

He was cutting off a finger in the episode, there was no mention or image to sggest gelding. (Yet.)

But i do think there was some hinting of the future in this episode due to GRRM's influence.

[ser benjamin]

I was actually referencing this upcoming episode. In the teaser, Bolton men appear to be holding Theon down with his legs apart while Boy walks up to him with a really evil looking knife. Im pretty sure Bear and the Maiden Fair is the one George actually wrote.

But you make a really interesting point about the book and story actually diverging to 2 different endings.

[Lion of Judah]

It seems to be a recurring theme, but there are some inconsistencies. Mirri Maz Durr and Dany come to mind, which is why I believe MMD intended to kill Danys baby. When MMD worked her black magic inside the tent she claimed only death can pay for life and outside of the tent 3 men died. There was one of Danys riders, Khal Drogo's Ko who tried to cut her throat and Jorah killed another of Drogo's Kos. Yet when questioned about the death of Danys child she says only death can pay for life. But she didn't need Danys baby to be dead to bring Drogo back in his decrepit state, there were three dead men right outside her tent. So either there is a something inconsistent going on or MMDs intent was the murder of Danys unborn baby.

[~Shiera Seastar~]

Who died all those times to

Bring back Berric?

No one died. The Red Priests usually perform the "last kiss" on R'hllor's servants who die; Thoros does it, too, as all priests must, but surprised when dead Beric opened his eyes. He thinks it isn't him who did it but his god, believing R'hllor not done with Beric yet. Not sure though if he also performs the ritual to the other member of the brotherhood who died, or if he can only resurrect a person whom R'hllor wants to live.

[ser benjamin]

I guess i feel like just bringing Jon back wouldnt be dramatic enough. Some have suggested it brings the wall down. Others have floated Theon's life as the price (he is "kings" blood) But maybe that is all just based on a lie told by Mirri Maz. (and even bolstered by Berric's final sacrifice) If that's the case, then I still hold that Mel will bring Jon back. In that view... doesnt that kind of give serious merit to R'hllor being the one true god?

[TheLostStark]

I was actually referencing this upcoming episode. In the teaser, Bolton men appear to be holding Theon down with his legs apart while Boy walks up to him with a really evil looking knife. Im pretty sure Bear and the Maiden Fair is the one George actually wrote.

But you make a really interesting point about the book and story actually diverging to 2 different endings.

Apologizes, you are correct.

[Stoned Dragon]

I guess i feel like just bringing Jon back wouldnt be dramatic enough. Some have suggested it brings the wall down. Others have floated Theon's life as the price (he is "kings" blood) But maybe that is all just based on a lie told by Mirri Maz. (and even bolstered by Berric's final sacrifice) If that's the case, then I still hold that Mel will bring Jon back. In that view... doesnt that kind of give serious merit to R'hllor being the one true god?

I don't think Jon is just going to be revived ala Baeric. When a member of the Night's Watch dies they light a funeral pyre for him. I wouldn't mind if Jon stayed "dead" the entire next book as the Wall crumbles and Stannis falters and the Others begin their invasion, only to have the Night's Watch finally burn his body and he is resurrected ala Dany in the funeral pyre.