R+L=J v.49

[King Robert's Warhammer]

Newbie here to who is intimidated by all the knowledge on display so apologies if this has been said before.

Lyanna is a Stark and we know how they feel about honour/duty/justice etc. Would she really tolerate a war being fought in her name? A war that kills thousand. Especially if she and Rhaegar are a legitimate couple.

Also, we know that she is concerned about Robert's fidelity but then has an affair with the Crown Prince?

[King of Winters]

Also, we know that she is concerned about Robert's fidelity but then has an affair with the Crown Prince?

The Targs practiced Polygamy, marrying more than one woman, so Lyanna wouldn't have been having an affair with Rhaegar, so that would make her and Jon part of the Royal Family.

[finger]

Hmmm, but Lyanna is dying, were they just planning on staying there after she died and watching Jon die? Cause they "can't leave" according to some, cause that is where the "King" is. Jon could not give a command so they just stay and die? Or spend years at that tower raising Jon?

Defend the King? From Ned? Not take orders from Lyanna? Jon is not the King, at best he is a heir? He is not crowned nor is he of age.

Yeah watch Lyanna die and then just sit there until they all die. Great plan, way to defend the king. Aside from the fact that the KG does not actually have to be with the King to defend him as pointed out by Jamie as being one of their rules. They only need to make sure he is safe.

I posted above that they were probably waiting for Lyanna's outcome (death or recover) in order to go away. They might have considered that they rather hid the boy. Anyhow they should have been well provided with midwife, wetnurse, and so. This takes us to the trail of Starfall and Ashara, but I'd better let the matter aside for the present.

The bottom line is that they were supposed to guard a woman and a baby but, with their decissions, they first committed some acts of cruelty, cost some lifes that could have been spared, only to perish in the intent and let the woman and the baby at the mercy of the pretented foes. Not to say that those emotions sure did not any good to Lyanna, but added to her woes. We don't really know how seriously ill she was or if her healing was feasible, we only know she did die.

Some may call this honour and duty, but some also may call it vain pride and downright failure.

[finger]

1. An order from Rhaegar explains them being there as they were guarding Lyanna before Jon was born and after Rhaegar left. If they were married then Lyanna is Princess Lyanna and it falls in line with guarding the royal family. Either or both explain the KG. But the KG do in fact take orders from the King and the royal family. Also if Rhaegar is riding to KL not just because the war but to remove his father, than the KG has probably excepted Rhaegar as the King, which is probably why Gerold obeyed him.

6. Yes Howland will show up, according to me he was already at Winterfell and confronted Aegon. But that's a guess. But what does Howland know? He wasn't in the room, so Ned could have told him anything. He may know Jon is R+L but not the full context of it. Ned may not have been very talkative. Personally I think Jon was moved along with Wylla to Starfall before Ned arrived. Lyanna would need a midwife at the very least. The KG do not have to be with the King to guard him, pointed out as an actual rule by Jamie "Who guards the King?" "And do we trust these men?" As long as the king is safe with trusted people the KG has fulfilled it's duty. Starfall would be far safer than the Tower and a fevered mother to the point of being on her death bed could not have tended to a baby. Staying at the tower with Lyanna serves the purpose to actually hide Jon and still if married guard a member of the family or if not obey an order from Rhaegar.

Rhaegar had assigned them a task. They thought they oughed it to his memory. And they try to accomplish at the cost of their lifes. They might be clumsy but they were fealthy. Btw, this doesn't prove Jon was R's legitimate son. I take we rather agree on what KG should have tried to do in order to preserve Jon's life. I hadn't read your poster when I wrote my last one.

As for HR, he saw KG put by R fight to dead, Lyanna dying from childbirth, a baby just born, supposedly some midwife or something,... C'mon he may be a crannogman, but I doubt he needed Ned to tell, he could very well draw his own conclusions.

Besides, this can be a help, bur I don't think the final outcome would change much if Jon's parentage is not proved. IMO, the interesting turn is how he'll take to be half a Targ. As a starter, he shouldn't be called Snow, since his father is no Northener. Should he be called Sand, since he was born at Dorne? Backfire? I don't think he'll chage it, anyway.

Crackpot: Jon's real name is Daemon :devil:

[King Robert's Warhammer]

The Targs practiced Polygamy, marrying more than one woman, so Lyanna wouldn't have been having an affair with Rhaegar, so that would make her and Jon part of the Royal Family.

I dont buy a strong independent woman going for the polygamy thing though.

[brew]

Daeron would be my guess actually. Or the male equivalent of Visenya if we're keeping witht he name theme or Rhaegar was expecting a daughter. Wonde rif he thought a daughter of Lyanna would be a warrior?

[finger]

Re Jaime and the meeting that required all of the Kingsguard to attend, he ascertained that two sufficiently reliable and capable men were protecting the king during the meeting, and immediately afterwards sent a Kingsguard back tot he king.

We know that Hightower and Dayne are both at the tower. We don't know what they are doing, but it is likely that they are afraid to travel with Lyanna in her current condition. It also seems likely that they are making arrangements to travel to a more secure location, with the king. As far as we know the Kingsguard only take orders from the king or his heir, if designated, which it appears that Rhaegar was.

I tend to think that there are some "flaws" in the fist book. The whole building of rights, duties, laws and customs is nor so well defined as it'd be afters.

A token. Robert might to a sot, but Jamie's behaviour in the Ned's affair was utterly unacceptable for a KG knight, according to what we've been told in the rest of the books. Even if he weren't KG, it'd be serious. But, being tied by vows to obey his king, his crime deserved demise of the KG and death penalty with dishonour. His taking shelter in Casterly Rock would have meant the fall of House Lannister. Besides, the most honourable Ser Barristan Selmy, as LC should have taken it as a personal sligh.

Well, it's open to discussion, but I just don't see it works with the codes we're using in the fifth stallment.

[finger]

Rhaegar gave them an order (it seems, we don't know for sure, but GRRM suggests it in an SSM) to guard the tower. That does NOT explain why they stayed and fought as a unit. The king is dead, they know that, Rhaegar is dead, they know that (following orders of a dead man?), "Prince Viserys" is elsewhere with no kingsguard, they know that. So why are they there and ready to fight? They tell us, it is a VOW. Jaime tells us the VOW of the Kingsguard is to "protect and defend the king", there are other promises, but that is the vow. If prince Viserys does not merit to have even one of the Kingsguard with him, and the Lord Commander is present to make that call, what possible explanation can justify that action? Only one, the king is present and they are defending the king.

Jaime also tells us that he's had to swear so many vows that it makes it impossible to honour them all at the same time.

I ask it earnestly. Do you know the wording of KG vows? I don't and I would. We know the NW vows, but not KG's afaik. I think they have a vow to obey.

Eta: I read you don't know, either. A pity, because I think their duties matter.

[Ygrain]

Lyanna is a Stark and we know how they feel about honour/duty/justice etc. Would she really tolerate a war being fought in her name? A war that kills thousand. Especially if she and Rhaegar are a legitimate couple.

Only, the war wasn't fought in her name. The war broke out after Aerys demanded the heads of Ned and Robert and Jon Arryn defied the order. It was either fight, or lose their heads. No proclamation from Lyanna about the real state of affairs would have changed a thing once that ball was rolling.

Also, we know that she is concerned about Robert's fidelity but then has an affair with the Crown Prince?

I dont buy a strong independent woman going for the polygamy thing though.

Well, does adultery seem more plausible for a strong independent woman? Polygamy would be a legal arrangement, there's no shame in it. Moreover, in that particular arrangement, Lyanna would have been a second wife de iure and the only wife de facto, as Rhaegar had no reason to bed a barren wife he was only "fond of".

Rhaegar had assigned them a task. They thought they oughed it to his memory. And they try to accomplish at the cost of their lifes. They might be clumsy but they were fealthy. Btw, this doesn't prove Jon was R's legitimate son.

And I'll throw in for thousand and first:

Honouring Rhaegar's order/wish while leaving the king unprotected is oathbreaking. Turn it round any way you wish, that's what it is.

Plus, the three KG at TOJ are a different kettle of fish than the later KG.

[King of Winters]

I dont buy a strong independent woman going for the polygamy thing though.

She loved Rhaegar and would have married him even though she knew, or she might not have realised. Anyway, the Kingsguard at the ToJ prove that she did marry Rhaegar.

[Ygrain]

Jaime also tells us that he's had to swear so many vows that it makes it impossible to honour them all at the same time.

I ask it earnestly. Do you know the wording of KG vows? I don't and I would. We know the NW vows, but not KG's afaik. I think they have a vow to obey.

And does the actual wording matter? They are Kingsguard. They repeatedly emphasize their status as Kingsguard. The whole dialogue revolves around the duties of Kingsguard. Which part of their vows might they be referring to, not to eat pizza on Mondays? Nope - their first and foremost duty, their ultimate goal, the very reason of their existence - to guard the King.

[King of Winters]

... is Viserys. If Jon was meant to have a Targaryen name, I would vote for Aemon.

Rhaegar was naming his children after Aegon and his sisters so he would have named Jon Viserys as he already had Aegon and Rhaenys and the male equivilent of Visenya is Visenya.

[King Robert's Warhammer]

Only, the war wasn't fought in her name. The war broke out after Aerys demanded the heads of Ned and Robert and Jon Arryn defied the order. It was either fight, or lose their heads. No proclamation from Lyanna about the real state of affairs would have changed a thing once that ball was rolling.

Well, does adultery seem more plausible for a strong independent woman? Polygamy would be a legal arrangement, there's no shame in it. Moreover, in that particular arrangement, Lyanna would have been a second wife de iure and the only wife de facto, as Rhaegar had no reason to bed a barren wife he was only "fond of".

And I'll throw in for thousand and first:

Honouring Rhaegar's order/wish while leaving the king unprotected is oathbreaking. Turn it round any way you wish, that's what it is.

Plus, the three KG at TOJ are a different kettle of fish than the later KG.

But it all kicked off because of the "abduction" in the first place. Couldnt they have done something once Lyanna's father and brother had been killed? I can see then that she may have gone in for a marriage but the woman who stood up for Howland Reed and probably defied convention by entering the tourney would have tried something to stop the bloodshed.

[finger]

And does the actual wording matter? They are Kingsguard. They repeatedly emphasize their status as Kingsguard. The whole dialogue revolves around the duties of Kingsguard. Which part of their vows might they be referring to, not to eat pizza on Mondays? Nope - their first and foremost duty, their ultimate goal, the very reason of their existence - to guard the King.

Rather than the actual wording, what matters is the vows they swear. They guard the king, but they also keep secrets, obey orders, and I don't know what more.

Btw, orders are not honoured but obeyed, and this leaves a very short space to discretionality. To obey is to obey. IMO, when a KG is given an order it's not up to him to decide the place he's better fit; his only only place to be is just where the order is obeyed. not.any.more. (Have you ever heard "sir, yes, sir"?)

[Ygrain]

But it all kicked off because of the "abduction" in the first place. Couldnt they have done something once Lyanna's father and brother had been killed? I can see then that she may have gone in for a marriage but the woman who stood up for Howland Reed and probably defied convention by entering the tourney would have tried something to stop the bloodshed.

Not really - without Brandon's rash action and Aerys' out-of-proportion response, it could have been settled very differently.

As for acting earlier, it would require Lyanna to be in touch and learn about it in time, as well as possess the means to act in time. Given the distances and delays in communication, it is highly probable that she and Rhaegar learned only when it was too late to do a thing.

Rather than the actual wording, what matters is the vows they swear. They guard the king, but they also keep secrets, obey orders, and I don't know what more.

Btw, orders are not honoured but obeyed, and this leaves a very short space to discretionality. To obey is to obey. IMO, when a KG is given an order it's not up to him to decide the place he's better fit; his only only place to be is just where the order is obeyed. not.any.more. (Have you ever heard "sir, yes, sir"?)

So, once again: which of the vows is of higher priority, to obey an order, or to guard the king?

"Sir, yes, sir, your orders are cool and dandy, but we have a standing order of highest priority which sorta clashes with yours, which one do we obey?"

...

...

...

Guard the King.

[King Robert's Warhammer]

I'm gonna have to do a lot of re-reading before I can spar with you all! :dunce:

[finger]

Not really - without Brandon's rash action and Aerys' out-of-proportion response, it could have been settled very differently.

As for acting earlier, it would require Lyanna to be in touch and learn about it in time, as well as possess the means to act in time. Given the distances and delays in communication, it is highly probable that she and Rhaegar learned only when it was too late to do a thing.

So, once again: which of the vows is of higher priority, to obey an order, or to guard the king?

"Sir, yes, sir, your orders are cool and dandy, but we have a standing order of highest priority which sorta clashes with yours, which one do we obey?"

...

...

...

Guard the King.

:stunned: I mean no offense but, have you ever been given an order? What's stuff? Such an answer implies death penalty.

The best you could expect would be something of the sort of: "GUARD THE WOMAN AND THE CHILD. What part you dont understand, GUARD, WOMAN or CHILD?"

I guess some kind of violence would be involved.

For something like that, Jon beheaded Janos Slynt. Orders are not to think about them, but to obeyed.

[Roadside Rose]

I'm gonna have to do a lot of re-reading before I can spar with you all! :dunce:

Welcome King Robert's Warhammer!

[Ygrain]

:stunned: I mean no offense but, have you ever been given an order? What's stuff? Such an answer implies death penalty.

The best you could expect would be something of the sort of: "GUARD THE WOMAN AND THE CHILD. What part you dont understand, GUARD, WOMAN or CHILD?"

I guess some kind of violence would be involved.

For something like that, Jon beheaded Janos Slynt. Orders are not to think about them, but to obeyed.

I'll be the first to admit that I'd make a piss-poor soldier but even I have heard the term "chain of command", which I believe sets certain priorities.

[Maxpey]

I'm gonna have to do a lot of re-reading before I can spar with you all! :dunce:

Don't worry, I was in the same boat as you a year ago. I had more fun doing re-reads because I was more motivated to get more actively involved in discussion here. I bet you'll feel the same way. :cheers: