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Zar Lannister

Margaery's Words of Wisdom [Spoilers]

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I don't recall Tyrion or any of the other adults frequenting ugly prostitutes/wives, either.

In fact Robb and Edmure both bitch about potentially getting stuck with ugly Frey daughters. I guess only girls are shallow.

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The real problem - Tyrion being able to be portrayed as more handsome with the scar. Sigh. That is what bothered me the most in this conversation. And I'm a Tyrion fan in general.

I mean in the book he isn't just a dwarf he is UGLY and MAIMED, truly scary looking. And Sansa has no time to get used to the idea.

Although in general other than that this scene makes a lot of sense in the series, I like that the showed that Sansa gets that she's been naive ( a start to the character evolution for the TV folks ) And how isolated Sansa is from her family.

But that "he's kind of hot" line to me highlighted one of the biggest difference between a TV series and a book. People are way prettier in a TV series, which can make the people who are supposed to be attractive seem like no big-whoop and the ugly loose their pathos.

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The real problem - Tyrion being able to be portrayed as more handsome with the scar. Sigh. That is what bothered me the most in this conversation. And I'm a Tyrion fan in general.

I mean in the book he isn't just a dwarf he is UGLY and MAIMED, truly scary looking. And Sansa has no time to get used to the idea.

Although in general other than that this scene makes a lot of sense in the series, I like that the showed that Sansa gets that she's been naive ( a start to the character evolution for the TV folks ) And how isolated Sansa is from her family.

But that "he's kind of hot" line to me highlighted one of the biggest difference between a TV series and a book. People are way prettier in a TV series, which can make the people who are supposed to be attractive seem like no big-whoop and the ugly loose their pathos.

The main difference is it's not up to your imagination in TV, Dinklage is a possible way of imagine Tyrion, most likely one of the most convenient ways. Further more he has a fanbase and the TV viewer don't have the same social backround like the characters in the books neither know they the books. If Sansa would have said "he is ugly I don't want to marry him" it woudn't have been to her benefit

In the end the show must adabt to the viewers not the other way around and for them Tyrion's appearence isn't such a big no-go and the show must have regard to this circumstances

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It's true, it's true. The Show has to deal with the way people look on the show. But that was the one thing that grated on my psyche as being way way different.

Unless they totally remove her repulsion, though, they have to make it sound like it is simply based on the fact that he is short. Not that he is in fact scary looking. (ETA: Piebald eyes, bluging forehead, missing nose, cheek sliced...)

Since he isn't so ugly, I wish they would spend a little more time emphasizing that he is a Lannister and what the Lannisters have done and would do to her family.

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It's true, it's true. The Show has to deal with the way people look on the show. But that was the one thing that grated on my psyche as being way way different.

Unless they totally remove her repulsion, though, they have to make it sound like it is simply based on the fact that he is short. Not that he is in fact scary looking.

Since he isn't so ugly, I wish they would spend a little more time emphasizing that he is a Lannister and what the Lannisters have done and would do to her family.

Yes will probably won't come until after the RW. The thing s next episode when the wedding is over an Tyrion had his stand off with Joffrey (the preview says it all) they can't just create a situation where he is the bad guy after all viewers saw how he protected Sansa. I think they must find away to avoid the negativ feelings Sansa has or she would look ungratefull. What ever they do most likely n the end it will make Tyrion only look even better and Sansa like the damsel in distress rescued by him. Not very good. IMO they blew the chance of showing us the thinking process Sansa had during the wedding this episode. Don't get me wrong I am a big supporter of this ship but they have either to cut all obstacles or Sansa will look like the stupid ungratefull blond not the victim she is right then

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The main difference is it's not up to your imagination in TV, Dinklage is a possible way of imagine Tyrion, most likely one of the most convenient ways. Further more he has a fanbase and the TV viewer don't have the same social backround like the characters in the books neither know they the books. If Sansa would have said "he is ugly I don't want to marry him" it woudn't have been to her benefit

In the end the show must adabt to the viewers not the other way around and for them Tyrion's appearence isn't such a big no-go and the show must have regard to this circumstances

Tyrion shouldn't look much like Dinklage. I've seen GRR Martin admit this specifically.

Tyrion in the books is short because of his twisted undersized legs. He also has an unusually large head that caused his mother to die in childbirth. And hist eyes don't match. Tyrion is also fairly strong in his upper body. He's capable of acrobatics, walking on his hands, sumersaults, and notable feats of strength. Tyrion of the books is able to overpower and throttle Shae with ease. Tyrion of the books is a pretty capable warrior out of sheer upper body strength. He's not just a man who happens to be very short. He's closer to an unnaturally proportioned freak. Huge head, strong arms, ugly face, and horribly twisted and stunted legs.

Tyrion in the HBO series is little person, and a particularly good looking one at that. There's nothing especially unattractive about him other than his height and short limbs. His head isn't particularly large and his eyes are fine. Tyrion in the HBO series is not made out to be a capable warrior. He has extremely short arms and is not likely to be capable of acrobatics, handstands, and tumbling like book Tyrion. I'm curious as to how he will choke Shae to death. In the books it's clear that he's much stronger than her. In real life I doubt that is the case.

I don't see how any of those physical differences is up to your imagination. This is a radical redesign of Tyrion at the physical level. It's very understandable, because it's not realistic to cast anyone that has a build like the books Tyrion. But it's a huge difference.

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Tyrion shouldn't look much like Dinklage. I've seen GRR Martin admit this specifically.

Tyrion in the books is short because of his twisted undersized legs. He also has an unusually large head that caused his mother to die in childbirth. And hist eyes don't match. Tyrion is also fairly strong in his upper body. He's capable of acrobatics, walking on his hands, sumersaults, and notable feats of strength. Tyrion of the books is able to overpower and throttle Shae with ease. Tyrion of the books is a pretty capable warrior out of sheer upper body strength. He's not just a man who happens to be very short. He's closer to an unnaturally proportioned freak. Huge head, strong arms, ugly face, and horribly twisted and stunted legs.

Tyrion in the HBO series is little person, and a particularly good looking one at that. There's nothing especially unattractive about him other than his height and short limbs. His head isn't particularly large and his eyes are fine. Tyrion in the HBO series is not made out to be a capable warrior. He has extremely short arms and is not likely to be capable of acrobatics, handstands, and tumbling like book Tyrion. I'm curious as to how he will choke Shae to death. In the books it's clear that he's much stronger than her. In real life I doubt that is the case.

I don't see how any of those physical differences is up to your imagination. This is a radical redesign of Tyrion at the physical level. It's very understandable, because it's not realistic to cast anyone that has a build like the books Tyrion. But it's a huge difference.

First: I said: "convenient" not "accurate" big difference

Second: After I read a character description I tend to create an image in my head influenced not only by physical describtion, nor do I analyse every little detail

So how you see Tyrion is naturally different than I see him, his proportions etc. How you imagine a twisted dwarf and I is different so in conclusion Dinklage is nearer to my image of Tyrion than yours.

The good thing with books is that it's always your own imagination and everything is up to that. So not so a big difference than you think

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First: I said: "convenient" not "accurate" big difference

Second: After I read a character description I tend to create an image in my head influenced not only by physical describtion, nor do I analyse every little detail

So how you see Tyrion is naturally different than I see him, his proportions etc. How you imagine a twisted dwarf and I is different so in conclusion Dinklage is nearer to my image of Tyrion than yours.

The good thing with books is that it's always your own imagination and everything is up to that. So not so a big difference than you think

So you're a good person to ask. Do you think your less ugly version of Tyrion in your head impacts how you think about Sansa's reaction to her marriage?

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It sort of reminds me of the Queen/Sansa talks in season two over the prospect of marrying Joffery. I viewed it here as Margaery alliance building, future wives vs future husbands as it were.

And yes, the show has turned Tyrion into a gary stu. The mind of Tywin, the heart of Ned, oh and he's a hot stud. Gag. Bring on emo "Where Do Whores Go" Tyrion, I say,

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So you're a good person to ask. Do you think your less ugly version of Tyrion in your head impacts how you think about Sansa's reaction to her marriage?

I think of my self that I am open to reason

I acknowledge that she is a victim and I don't hold her feeling against her (at least not anymore) but (now comes the big but) I think the marriage could work (especially after I readall the rethinking Sansa threads) I think they coud fit together if they overcome the obstacles both have. (I once said Sansa must see that Tyrion isn't her enemy and someone must kick Tyrion in the ass to try harder)

But back to your question I think her repulsion is understandable but changeable

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So did they screw up or is there a plausible reason why Marg and Sansa assume her child will be Lord of Winterfell one day? That's gonan raise eye brows with the overly analytical show only viewers for sure. .

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So did they screw up or is there a plausible reason why Marg and Sansa assume her child will be Lord of Winterfell one day? That's gonna raise eye brows with the overly analytical show only viewers for sure. .

edit: oops

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I think of my self that I am open to reason

I acknowledge that she is a victim and I don't hold her feeling against her (at least not anymore) but (now comes the big but) I think the marriage could work (especially after I readall the rethinking Sansa threads) I think they coud fit together if they overcome the obstacles both have. (I once said Sansa must see that Tyrion isn't her enemy and someone must kick Tyrion in the ass to try harder)

But back to your question I think her repulsion is understandable but changeable

Sounds fair to me.

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So did they screw up or is there a plausible reason why Marg and Sansa assume her child will be Lord of Winterfell one day? That's gonan raise eye brows with the overly analytical show only viewers for sure. .

There has been a lot about that on this thread for sure. I didn't blink because I heard the "maybe" in the statement. And if the Lannister, cough, Baratheon King, wins the war there is a good chance he would choose his uncle and his uncle's startk bride to be the wardens of the North. And since they are in Lannister, cough, Baratheon controlled territory, that is the safest thing to talk about.

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So did they screw up or is there a plausible reason why Marg and Sansa assume her child will be Lord of Winterfell one day? That's gonan raise eye brows with the overly analytical show only viewers for sure. .

I am not sure, last year I searched forshadowing in Blackwater because it was written by GRRM. But this year, I didn't see much GRRM in the episode so perhaps they just wanted to point out Tywin's reasons to "order" the marriage

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Women can be schooled by their family members, particularly their female family members, in all sorts of thing, including very sophisticated sexual and erotic knowledge. It happens in many cultures, or it has happened in many cultures. It's just here in the Christianized west we still have the idea that a girl, woman, whoever, isn't supposed to KNOW anything until she actually has sex. That's how we get so many young pregnant girls -- all the people who think sex education means -- DON'T! -- and that's it.

Also, the writers are probably trying to coat tail Margaery's knowingness from her character's year's play of Henry VIII, keeping him interested, as well as burning, without ever yielding penetration.

She comes out of a sophisticated, urbane, intelligent family of power game players. They taught her. Too bad Catelyn couldn't have taught some of those worldly skills and some of that worldly knowledge to her children. The boys were brought up to be good rulers, good fighters and good military leaders skilled at battles, but not how to play politics -- or win wars. This is Catelyn's and Rob's bitter knowledge, that Rob is good at winning battles but he's not winning the war.

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I love show!Margaery a lot more than book!Margaery because we're getting so much more of her character (and she's also so much ~sweeter to Sansa :love: )

it's true she's more interesting, and sweeter, but there was the part in the books when Sansa got engaged to Tyrion and Marg and her cousins turned *away* from Sansa. It didn't bring them closer, showing that the Tyrells (obviously) don't really trust the Lannisters, and Sansa was about to become a Lady Lannister, so her presence would 1. bum everybody out and 2. provide a dangerous spy for the Lannisters.

It also emphasized Sansa's loneliness and desperation. When she married Tyrion she truly lost hope for a way out (aside from her meetings with Dontos of course)

This aspect of Sansa's plot is lost when Marg gives her 'the talk'

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it's true she's more interesting, and sweeter, but there was the part in the books when Sansa got engaged to Tyrion and Marg and her cousins turned *away* from Sansa. It didn't bring them closer, showing that the Tyrells (obviously) don't really trust the Lannisters, and Sansa was about to become a Lady Lannister, so her presence would 1. bum everybody out and 2. provide a dangerous spy for the Lannisters.

It also emphasized Sansa's loneliness and desperation. When she married Tyrion she truly lost hope for a way out (aside from her meetings with Dontos of course)

This aspect of Sansa's plot is lost when Marg gives her 'the talk'

Yes, but on the other hand show Sansa isn't alone: she has Shae (strange yes) and Shae is much ,ore than Dontos she is a confidant so this part of the plot was lost anyway

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Yes, but on the other hand show Sansa isn't alone: she has Shae (strange yes) and Shae is much ,ore than Dontos she is a confidant so this part of the plot was lost anyway

Shae was downright repulsive in the books, a terrible terrible human being and Tyrion still loved her. It wouldn't make sense for Saint Tyrion of the show to love someone so repugnant, so they changed Shae into a Sansa confidante. It makes you wonder if there's more to Shae then we're let on, but unfortunately the text only supports that there isn't even that much in Shae. Remember what she said of poor Lollys after she was repeatedly raped?

The only one who's gotten a worse treatement in the show so far is Joffrey. He's worse in the show than he's ever been on the page in the books.

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Shae was downright repulsive in the books, a terrible terrible human being and Tyrion still loved her. It wouldn't make sense for Saint Tyrion of the show to love someone so repugnant, so they changed Shae into a Sansa confidante. It makes you wonder if there's more to Shae then we're let on, but unfortunately the text only supports that there isn't even that much in Shae. Remember what she said of poor Lollys after she was repeatedly raped?

The only one who's gotten a worse treatement in the show so far is Joffrey. He's worse in the show than he's ever been on the page in the books.

Yes book Shae is just a smart whore, remember when she suggest she and Tyrion should do it besides Sansa when she is asleep.

But I doubt book Tyrion was in love with her. Tyrion carves for affection like a man craves water in the desert. He pays her not to be his whore he pays her to pretend to be his girlfriend, he tries to block out what she is but never forgets it. He even gets mad when she broke the charater and slaps her. Tyrion likes the illusion and thinks the same time he is loved. He even admitts that he had done it before. He states that if he has a whore for longer he is monogamous.

And I agree with Joffrey in the book he is sadistic too but also much more depending on his mother and has no balls. Show Joffrey is ignorant and has a dangerous combination of ego, poor judgment and autonomy

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