GRRM hasn't really killed off that many main characters

[thetitansbastard]

There are plenty of main characters, but there are no individuals who stand head & shoulders above the rest.

Out of the six? Ok.

[Corvo Attano]

Respectfully, that statement makes no sense and is self-contradictory.

Yeah, i didn't express myself well. What I mean is, there aren't any individials who are much more important than everyone else. All the major characters are of (roughly) equal importance.

[Faint]

Yeah, i didn't express myself well. What I mean is, there aren't any individials who are much more important than everyone else. All the major characters are of (roughly) equal importance.

Right. And there are six of them.

[Corvo Attano]

Right. And there are six of them.

No. There are at least 10, probably closer to 15.

[Leto]

Nothing. I think some people just don't understand children's novels.

Understandably because they are children's books it's more difficult to introduce 'grey' characters. I would call HP and ASOIAF different categories of novels because of the intended audience. I wouldn't say ASOIAF is the adult version of HP, as I've heard it referred to as before.

And Twilight has yet another audiance that is reaches out to quite successfully.

[Trajan117AD]

I want to qualify this post by starting that while I'm a voracious reader of history (specifically late antiquity), I'm not a big SciFi/fantasy fan. So its unusual for me to so thoroughly enjoy a fantasy book series. I do see a lot of parallels with history; from the similarities of the Stark/Lannister feud with the War of the Roses, to the Unsullied's similarities to the Roman legions (I see a lot of comparing to the Greek Hoplites, though in truth except for their fierce bravery is similar to how we think of Spartans), with their battle formations set up like the Roman maniple (not the phalanx) and their use of the spear and short sword.

In general I see GRRM has faith in his readers intelligence, and he doesn't insult it by just rewriting the formulaic fantasy; absolute good vs absolute evil, the hero meets obstacles along the road but inevitably is victorious over the enemy, kill off a few sympathetic, but B-list characters.

Its refreshing to have a series off books that doesn't try to appeal to the lowest common denominator by giving us same old same.

I have heard/read some grumbling about him ruining the story by killing off this character or that, typically referring to the RW, I find this to be the lowest common denominator, or they are just watching GOT (to the TV viewers, I have to let them know that we don't get the end of "act one " until next season, and we're less than a third of the way through, and there s a lot more story to go.

The world GRRM gives us is far more like our own; not everything "happens for a reason " and bad things will happen to good people. When they do, its not always for some greater purpose, sometimes its just to sate the appetite for revenge of a low life (red wedding). Bravery, honor and the moral high ground doesn't guaranty success; sometimes the bravest most honorable soldier is killed in the first seconds of battle, while a coward may not only survive, but flourish.

The only thing I've come to expect from ASOIAF is the unexpected, I'm not even confident that when all is said and done that the Others (if they are indeed the embodiment of "evil") won't get through the wall and kill all if Westeros. Though I have admit I will be thoroughly bummed if; Jon Snow is actually dead and won't return later in our story, Tyrion is killed off early in WOW, Arya is killed before getting her deserved vengeance, Brienne does just betray Jaime to safe her own neck, etc.

But thats the chances we take getting vested in characters in ASOIAF.

[Morienthar]

And Twilight has yet another audiance that is reaches out to quite successfully.

The series started off ok,Then got really bad really quickly,like by the last few chapters of the first book.

Exactly. JKR's deaths (except Sirius and Dumbledore) happened at the same book, and mostly of them at the end, that's why many readers used to say that she forgot to kill them in previous books so, she was so rushed at the time to finish them.

There wasn't open warfare in the books until the last two,It was supposed to be school for god sakes.

As for Deaths by GRRM,the only POV chracters that are dead are Cat and Ned right??

But Plot main chracters like Robb,Tywin and even Kevan(His death paves way for a shitstorm) have been killed.

[Trajan117AD]

The author is far more conventional than he is made out to be. The main characters have always been the trinity of Daenerys, Jon and Tyrion, along with the three Stark children (i.e., Arya, Bran and Sansa). The rest of the cast of characters are secondary figures or even less than that.

I have to disagree, they're only the main three if you ignore the fact that in one book, Tyrion doesn't make a single appearance. It is tempting to view this way, though doing so ingores other extremely significant characters. Also, I won't even try to predict what characters will play what roles in the two yet to come books. If you try to lable characters by their significance within the story, the first book would indicate that Ned Stark would be the main protagonist in the story, right up to the point his head is separated from his body. We would also think other characters are insignificant, until they are.

Personally, though her character bores me (and foolishly I skimmed through her pov chapters the first reading of the series), I believe that Sansa will play a much greater role in the final two books, and she will be raised up from her "supporting role " status she know resides in. Thats the beauty of the series, you can make educated guesses as to what will come, but even if you read each book a dozen times, thats the most you can hope for, an educated guess.

[GREYJOY4LYFE]

You need only look at the fact that GRRM originally was going to put a 5 year gap between Books 3 and 4 to know who the main characters are. Daenerys, Tyrion, Bran, Arya, and Sansa all would have had their stories benefit well from a 5 year gap as they all do their thing (learn to be a queen, go into exile, become a warging forest child, become a faceless man, learn how to play the politics in the Vale) while Jon Snow's story was also workable with a 5 year gap (solidify rule as Lord Commander of the Night's Watch). My guess it was the other characters that GRRM didn't originally intend to write much about but whom he couldn't help indulging into as the series expanded whom he realized wouldn't work with a 5 year gap.

[GREYJOY4LYFE]

I have to disagree, they're only the main three if you ignore the fact that in one book, Tyrion doesn't make a single appearance. It is tempting to view this way, though doing so ingores other extremely significant characters. Also, I won't even try to predict what characters will play what roles in the two yet to come books. If you try to lable characters by their significance within the story, the first book would indicate that Ned Stark would be the main protagonist in the story, right up to the point his head is separated from his body. We would also think other characters are insignificant, until they are.

Personally, though her character bores me (and foolishly I skimmed through her pov chapters the first reading of the series), I believe that Sansa will play a much greater role in the final two books, and she will be raised up from her "supporting role " status she know resides in. Thats the beauty of the series, you can make educated guesses as to what will come, but even if you read each book a dozen times, thats the most you can hope for, an educated guess.

Those 6 are POV characters right from the begining of the series. Certainly other characters like Davos, Jaime, Cersei, Theon that become POV but they haven't been with us from the start and all will play an important role in the conclusion.

[protar]

I would say there have been 8 truly major character deaths and they were all in AGOT and ASOS:

Viserys, Robert, Ned, Drogo, Robb, Cat, Joffrey and Tywin.

Of those 8, all are shocking but the only ones which I would consider master strokes of writing are Ned, Robb and Cat (who arguably doesn't count). Joff, Viserys and Tywin are all villains which even your average author has no problem killing off - and the former two are rather pathetic ones at that when you look at them closely (in their characters not their writing.). Robert and Drogo are both the type of character that any author worth their salt would be willing to kill off imo. And while Robb's death was absolute literary genius in it's brutality Robb is definitely one of the least important on that list - in a way his death elevates him to main character status because it makes him memorable. So Ned's death remains the one true shock imo.

[Errant Bard]

In general I see GRRM has faith in his readers intelligence, and he doesn't insult it by just rewriting the formulaic fantasy; absolute good vs absolute evil, the hero meets obstacles along the road but inevitably is victorious over the enemy, kill off a few sympathetic, but B-list characters.

Its refreshing to have a series off books that doesn't try to appeal to the lowest common denominator by giving us same old same.

[...]

The world GRRM gives us is far more like our own; not everything "happens for a reason " and bad things will happen to good people. When they do, its not always for some greater purpose, sometimes its just to sate the appetite for revenge of a low life (red wedding).

But GRRM does offer use the old same. Very little Fantasy book actually conform to the formula as you seem to understand it, but GRRM totally adheres to the formula as you actually describe it: good is the humans, evil is the Others. Classic conflict, and an actual throwback to LOTR, only less nuanced (at least orcs had some intelligence and motivations, even Saruman had a greater good thing starting him on the sloppy slope,) we could also mention Wheel of Time. A lot of contemporary Fantasy does away with that setup though, in favour of localized (or not) power struggles between not altogether pure good or evil humans.

What happens to Ned or Robb has a purpose, it's advancing the story, on a well-trodden path, as it is how the "standard" formula you referred to develops. Just look:

a bunch of teenager lose their family and their home and their titles to political intrigue, and hide in the world. They train under powerful mentors. They get magical powers, magical pets, magical tools. They rise to prestigious/powerful posts thanks to they inner talents. They get together when a supernatural evil threatens the world. They unite the world behind them, doing away or forgiving/recruiting the ones who caused their downfall to start with. They win against evil.

Sounds familiar? As it happens, this is pretty typical. What is not typical is seeing the prologue in such details: the status quo has to be shot dead at the start of the story, but it's usually done offscreen, and less protracted. In WoT, it pretty much happens in one chapter, even though the rest follows the formula; in ASOIAF, it happens over three books, even as the PoV structure still allows the kids journey to go on in parallel, it's a nifty trick.

In the end, the good guys win. There is a reason nobody thinks Jon is dead (dead-dead I mean, not dead-woopsjustafleshwound.) The details still are worked to feel more natural, and, keeping in mind what Daniel Abraham -a friend and collaborator of GRRM- said, GRRM is still out to subvert the conventional Fantasy story. Looking at his track record and what he said (for example, of LOTR's ending and how he plans to do his similarly bittersweet), I wager that he is out to subvert the tropes by making them more real: the traumas won't magically go away, the loyalty conundrums will not get sweeped under the rug, the murderers will stay murderers, the "good" guys who revel in murder will not be whitewashed, the motivations for conquest or the reason for successful conquest will not necessarily be nice and natural outcome for "conventional" archetype behaviour will be meted out (Jon getting stabbed, for example, or Robb) and less sidestepped than normal.

Still, he's bound by the form of his story, so he will not be able to kill the heroes for good no matter how stupid they are (Jon will come back, eh), and he will not be able to just sink the Good vs Evil (zombies) narrative to embark on, say, a dramatic romance story between Arya Stark and Olyvar Frey (Oh Olyvar, wherefore art thou Olyvar...)

So I suppose I must say that on topic, there was no main character death yet, except for Jon, but everyone knows that he is not actually dead. The main characters being for me, following the conventional formula:

1. Heroes: Jon, Dany, Bran.
   
2. Support: Arya, Sansa, Tyrion
   
3. Totally expendable: the rest

Friends/siblings sidekicks tend to survive unless there is a need to motivate the main characters (Sam/Boromir), the expendables can die offscreen and nobody is shocked.

I have heard/read some grumbling about him ruining the story by killing off this character or that, typically referring to the RW, I find this to be the lowest common denominator, or they are just watching GOT (to the TV viewers, I have to let them know that we don't get the end of "act one " until next season, and we're less than a third of the way through, and there s a lot more story to go.

I must conjecture that it is the TV series effect, there was not a single reader I've seen argue the series was ruined because of the red wedding, in fact all those I've seen discussing this agree that Ned then the Red Wedding is what sets ASOIAF apart, what makes it better, even if it was gut-wrenching.

[King Tyrion VIII]

Crap. Now Ayra, Sansa, Bran, Rickon and Benjen will all die in TWOW :(

[RhaenysBee]

As many characters GRRM has, he didn't kill off many in any aspect. All you can complain about is high fluctuation... (and missing some of your favorites, but yeah, deal with it...)

[Sworn Shield]

If Stannis dies I'll never eat peaches again, but he is not a main character compared to Jon,Dany, Tyrion, Bran, Arya and Sansa. While Stannis is massively important to the plot though we all know he isn't AA and probably won't be king in the end (perhaps hand of the king maybe).