Why do people....

[winterfellbeyondthewall]

Not really. He had no idea about Aerys' Wildfire Plot, and if Elia was captured by the Rebels he wouldn't have expected her to be raped and his children slaughtered as they were. Gregor and Amory went beyond what was "normal". Elia was highborn, her treatment by Tywin's men was... Out of the ordinary.

And unnecessarily cruel. I don't think anybody would have considered the calibre of this captivity when thinking about whether or not to leave her behind (under supervision mind you)

[purple-eyes]

Not really. He had no idea about Aerys' Wildfire Plot, and if Elia was captured by the Rebels he wouldn't have expected her to be raped and his children slaughtered as they were. Gregor and Amory went beyond what was "normal". Elia was highborn, her treatment by Tywin's men was... Out of the ordinary.

This is not true. If Rhaegar did think about his possible failure, it is not hard to imagine all the Targ family members will be killed after the rebellion. Even Targ themselves killed their own relatives during their own rebellion. Everybody can imagine or predict it. It happened in any country and it is common sense.

If he thought he will win for sure, then he is an idiot.

[winterfellbeyondthewall]

This is not true. If Rhaegar did think about his possible failure, it is not hard to imagine all the Targ family members will be killed after the rebellion. Even Targ themselves killed their own relatives during their own rebellion. Everybody can imagine or predict it. It happened in any country and it is common sense.

If he thought he will win for sure, then he is an idiot.

I don't think a rebellion was what he was expecting in the first place to be honest, if I were Rhaegar I probably would have considered single combat

[HexMachina]

If he did not expect to lose, then as a crown prince and future king, he does look like an idiot.

Why would he have marched to a battle he expected to lose? Unless I'm mistaken, he had the numerical advantage, which, while not an assurance of victory, improves his chances. He would have looked more of an idiot by marching to the Trident for a battle he expected to lose (rather than, for example, fortifying in some strong castle, or joking with the Tyrell troops

[Raving Stark the Mad]

:bs:  If Rhaegar hadn't abandoned her with Aerys she wouldn't had died no matter what Tywin wanted.

 

 

If you had bought a Ford F-350 King Cab instead of a Nissan Altima, your kids would still be alive when that 18 wheeler T-boned you. 

 

 

Was he an idiot then?

He just couldn't see the future. 

[purple-eyes]

I don't think a rebellion was what he was assuming in the first place to be honest, if I were Rhaegar I probably would have considered single combat

Come on. I am talking about his behavior after he came back to KL from his love nest.
In the very beginning it may be ok to underestimate the situation, but when you had half kingdom right there before you, even an idiot should know it can become dangerous and may fail.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

 

You seem to bother so much about Aerys. What is the big deal with him?

Except from being a lunatic who enjoyed to torture, rape and killing people?

Not taking something into account while considering a certain action does not make you an idiot ultimately. It still depends on the circumstances and situation.

:bs:  What he did caused a war. Not seeing how serious his actions were is idiotic.

Not really. He had no idea about Aerys' Wildfire Plot, and if Elia was captured by the Rebels he wouldn't have expected her to be raped and his children slaughtered as they were. Gregor and Amory went beyond what was "normal". Elia was highborn, her treatment by Tywin's men was... Out of the ordinary.

He knew that his father was crazy and eeing how he was a coward who didn't participate to the war he helped to create is idiotic. So I guess that only an idiot wouldn't had seen what he caused he was an idiot halfwit.

If you had bought a Ford F-350 King Cab instead of a Nissan Altima, your kids would still be alive when that 18 wheeler T-boned you. 

Wut?

He just couldn't see the future. 

Right because understanding what effing disappearing with a woman that you haven't married who happens to have ties with 4 Great Houses could cause needs someone to be a nuclear physicist.

[winterfellbeyondthewall]

Come on. I am talking about his behavior after he came back to KL from his love nest.
In the very beginning it may be ok to underestimate the situation, but when you had half kingdom right there before you, even an idiot should know it can become dangerous and may fail.

Sorry my bad I surmised you were talking about the beginning of it all

[winterfellbeyondthewall]

 You're right it CAUSED a war. How could he have known what was going to happen unless he had some clairvoyant features?

And yes Aerys was mad and lunatic, and sick and whatsoever but he never presumed to hurt Elia or the children

[purple-eyes]

Why would he have marched to a battle he expected to lose? Unless I'm mistaken, he had the numerical advantage, which, while not an assurance of victory, improves his chances. He would have looked more of an idiot by marching to the Trident for a battle he expected to lose (rather than, for example, fortifying in some strong castle, or joking with the Tyrell troops

I do not agree with you. Of course a military leader always wants and expects a victory, but everybody knows that there is a possibility for failure no matter how good you are. That is why people have back-up plan for retreat. Rhaegar can have as much as confidence in victory, but a good general should have plan B for a possible failure.
His failure will lead to the sack of KL. If there is a sack, everyone in his house will die.

[HexMachina]

Come on. I am talking about his behavior after he came back to KL from his love nest.
In the very beginning it may be ok to underestimate the situation, but when you had half kingdom right there before you, even an idiot should know it can become dangerous and may fail.

And you think Aerys, who was already paranoid about Rhaegar, and wanted Elia to ensure the Martell's loyalty, would be okay with Elia leaving? And if Rhaegar forced that point, it's a sure way to start conflict between the Targaryen Loyalists, which, in a time of rebellion, would be a terrible move. There wasn't' really a great deal he could do at that point.

He knew that his father was crazy and eeing how he was a coward who didn't participate to the war he helped to create is idiotic. So I guess that only an idiot wouldn't had seen what he caused he was an idiot halfwit.

He knew his father was mad yes. But he also knew that Aerys needed Dorne, and that Aerys was aware of this fact. Elia was more or less a hostage to ensure Dornish loyalty, so Aerys harming her would have been very unexpected (and he didn't anyway, unless you refer to the potential of the Wildfire plot. In which case, absolutely nobody suspected anything like that. Jaime was the only one who knew, and he was always around Aerys).
As to him not realising his actions may result in Rebellion, well, I don't think he is necessarily an idiot if he doesn't realise. There are too many factors we don't know about - was it consensual on Lyanna's part? Did the pair try and communicate what was happening to others (like Rickard for example)? And so on. It's also worth noting that Brandon Stark acted very rashly, something Rhaegar probably couldn't have predicted. And Aerys, despite his paranoia, acted unexpectedly too in executing Brandon and Rickard and calling for Ned and Roberts heads. I don't see how Rhaegar could have predicted that, especially the latter (which was, ultimately what pushed Jon Arryn to call the banners)

[purple-eyes]

You're right it CAUSED a war. How could he have known what was going to happen unless he had some clairvoyant features?
And yes Aerys was mad and lunatic, and sick and whatsoever but he never presumed to hurt Elia or the children

IMHO, it is not about Aerys. If the rebellion succeeded, even Aerys is a good and nice king, he will still be killed. The same thing with Elia and her children. The leader of rebellion will not let them live to do another rebellion in the future.

[winterfellbeyondthewall]

IMHO, it is not about Aerys. If the rebellion succeeded, even Aerys is a good and nice king, he will still be killed. The same thing with Elia and her children. The leader of rebellion will not let them live to do another rebellion in the future.

Yes they would ensure the claim to the iron throne by killing off the opposers. But I wasn't referring to your statement but rather to the poster before you, I just didn't quote to make that obvious.

[purple-eyes]

And you think Aerys, who was already paranoid about Rhaegar, and wanted Elia to ensure the Martell's loyalty, would be okay with Elia leaving? And if Rhaegar forced that point, it's a sure way to start conflict between the Targaryen Loyalists, which, in a time of rebellion, would be a terrible move. There wasn't' really a great deal he could do at that point.
He knew his father was mad yes. But he also knew that Aerys needed Dorne, and that Aerys was aware of this fact. Elia was more or less a hostage to ensure Dornish loyalty, so Aerys harming her would have been very unexpected (and he didn't anyway, unless you refer to the potential of the Wildfire plot. In which case, absolutely nobody suspected anything like that. Jaime was the only one who knew, and he was always around Aerys).
As to him not realising his actions may result in Rebellion, well, I don't think he is necessarily an idiot if he doesn't realise. There are too many factors we don't know about - was it consensual on Lyanna's part? Did the pair try and communicate what was happening to others (like Rickard for example)? And so on. It's also worth noting that Brandon Stark acted very rashly, something Rhaegar probably couldn't have predicted. And Aerys, despite his paranoia, acted unexpectedly too in executing Brandon and Rickard and calling for Ned and Roberts heads. I don't see how Rhaegar could have predicted that, especially the latter (which was, ultimately what pushed Jon Arryn to call the banners)

I agree with you. Rhaegar can not force his dad to let Elia run to DS. But at least he should try to send His own children or at lease poor Aegon to DS. Elia herself is enough to be as a hostage for Dorne. His children are his heirs and also grandchildren of his dad.

[HexMachina]

I do not agree with you. Of course a military leader always wants and expects a victory, but everybody knows that there is a possibility for failure no matter how good you are. That is why people have back-up plan for retreat. Rhaegar can have as much as confidence in victory, but a good general should have plan B for a possible failure.
His failure will lead to the sack of KL. If there is a sack, everyone in his house will die.

Who is to say there wasn't a Plan B for an orderly retreat? The death of Rhaegar and loss of his KG likely threw the remaining loyalists into confusion and scuppered any such plans.
Also, we are talking about the safety of Elia and her children here, correct? Rhaegar cannot get them out of KL without feeling Aerys paranoia and provoking in-fighting among the loyalists.
And I disagree that the Sack of Kings landing and murder of Rhaegar's family was inevitable if he lost. Had Ned arrived before Tywin for example, Elia would almost certainly have been spared, and Aegon and Rhaenys would likely have been spared the gruesome fates they suffered at the hands of Gregor and Amory. Instead, they would likely be captured, and their ultimate fates decided by the leaders of the Rebellion. The children were killed because Tywin had to do something drastic to prove his loyalty. Elia was killed because Tywin was bitter and held a grudge, or because of his carelessness/negligence (depending what version you believe)

[HexMachina]

I agree with you. Rhaegar can not force his dad to let Elia run to DS. But at least he should try to send His own children or at lease poor Aegon to DS. Elia herself is enough to be as a hostage for Dorne. His children are his heirs and also grandchildren of his dad.

But Aegon is Rhaegar's heir, another "threat" that Aerys would perceive. And for all we know, Rhaegar may have tried to send them with his mother. But he had little bargaining power at this point; Aerys is mad, holds his wife and children, and they are in the midst of a rebellion. There isn't a great deal he can do to convince Aerys to let any of them go if Aerys says no

[Raving Stark the Mad]

 

Right because understanding what effing disappearing with a woman that you haven't married who happens to have ties with 4 Great Houses could cause needs someone to be a nuclear physicist.

 

I agree that Rhaegar should have foreseen war, thought I doubt he did.  It seems to me that he wasn't thinking with his head when he ran off with Lyanna.  This still does not make him responsible for the sack of KL, the rape of his wife, and the murder of his children. 

 

Are you proposing that Rhaegar DID foresee the sack, the rape, and the murders, and decided to do nothing? Not that he SHOULD have, but that he did.  That he did not care about his wife or his children. 

[winterfellbeyondthewall]

Who is to say there wasn't a Plan B for an orderly retreat? The death of Rhaegar and loss of his KG likely threw the remaining loyalists into confusion and scuppered any such plans.
Also, we are talking about the safety of Elia and her children here, correct? Rhaegar cannot get them out of KL without feeling Aerys paranoia and provoking in-fighting among the loyalists.
And I disagree that the Sack of Kings landing and murder of Rhaegar's family was inevitable if he lost. Had Ned arrived before Tywin for example, Elia would almost certainly have been spared, and Aegon and Rhaenys would likely have been spared the gruesome fates they suffered at the hands of Gregor and Amory. Instead, they would likely be captured, and their ultimate fates decided by the leaders of the Rebellion. The children were killed because Tywin had to do something drastic to prove his loyalty. Elia was killed because Tywin was bitter and held a grudge, or because of his carelessness/negligence (depending what version you believe)

Agreed. I don't think Rhaegar would have been someone to not think what might be happening. Only some things one cannot predict and every precaution and provision wouldn't have been enough to stop Roberts prevailing host. Maybe all this wouldn't even have happened if the "abduction" didn't take place but again we don't know Rhaegar's motives right now

[winterfellbeyondthewall]

I agree that Rhaegar should have foreseen war, thought I doubt he did.  It seems to me that he wasn't thinking with his head when he ran off with Lyanna.  This still does not make him responsible for the sack of KL, the rape of his wife, and the murder of his children. 
 
Are you proposing that Rhaegar DID foresee the sack, the rape, and the murders, and decided to do nothing? Not that he SHOULD have, but that he did.  That he did not care about his wife or his children. 

I think a lot of people seem to neglect the fact that even though Rhaegar loved another woman he still did care about his wife and children especially. The sack of KL and everything following wasn't his fault

[purple-eyes]

Who is to say there wasn't a Plan B for an orderly retreat? The death of Rhaegar and loss of his KG likely threw the remaining loyalists into confusion and scuppered any such plans.
Also, we are talking about the safety of Elia and her children here, correct? Rhaegar cannot get them out of KL without feeling Aerys paranoia and provoking in-fighting among the loyalists.
And I disagree that the Sack of Kings landing and murder of Rhaegar's family was inevitable if he lost. Had Ned arrived before Tywin for example, Elia would almost certainly have been spared, and Aegon and Rhaenys would likely have been spared the gruesome fates they suffered at the hands of Gregor and Amory. Instead, they would likely be captured, and their ultimate fates decided by the leaders of the Rebellion. The children were killed because Tywin had to do something drastic to prove his loyalty. Elia was killed because Tywin was bitter and held a grudge, or because of his carelessness/negligence (depending what version you believe)

Just like I said, Rhaegar at least should try to send his children or Aegon to DS before the Trident. Elia was enough as a hostage. Aegon is a Targ and his heir and grandson of his Dad. This should be part of his plan B.
Of course, you could argue that Aerys kept his whole family to make sure Rhaegar is loyal to him too. This will make more sense. But again, if he did not cause this war and showed up so late, his family will not suffer this much. Do not tell me he does not know woman and child need to be protected. He left three KG for Lyanna.